Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
peace Ahmed,
Peace Walid
phoenix1 wrote:
ok, you have explained your position. I'll keep that in mind.
Great
phoenix1 wrote:
I'd like it if you join FM again, but it's your choice, of course.
Impossible to happen bro and be under the mercy of a biased double faced and confused Muslim
phoenix1 wrote:
I know that you stick to the quran, and don't like to use other sources.
Good, however I'm sure that you are aware of those who use the book of the matrix on FM,
phoenix1 wrote:
But using the Matrix to explain your position is like using the video you made about hell.
The video was based on the Quran verses , in fact it is almost Quran verses only, straightforward and clear, till now bro I have problems comprehending the matrix movie, and I'm sure I'm not unique in this
phoenix1 wrote:
There isn't a wrong way to explain your ideas as long as you back them up with proof.
Well, if we talk about God then the only proofs is what He said, not what me and you say
phoenix1 wrote:
The Matrix actually contains references to the Quran and I definitely like some of the ideas contained in that movie.
The Quran does not need the matrix movie to be explained and if it does I would never have followed it, because it will be nothing but a book of confusion
phoenix1 wrote:
And what you debate for, that is, your position, is based on what you think the Quran says (as you said), not on what the Quran actually says.
Sorry, what was that?
So you mean Allah is talking in another Arabic from a different planet?
So what we understand at schools is according to what we understand not bloody to what the logical meaning of what we study
What loads of crap is this bro?
phoenix1 wrote:
Saying that we know exactly what the Quran says is blasphemy, I think.
Really?
Can you support your statement from the Quran or it is only bound to your thinking?
phoenix1 wrote:
But we must follow the best understanding there is.
The best understanding out of many that makes sense, not the best out of many non sensible and illogical ones
phoenix1 wrote:
And I don't think taking literally everything we can is the right way to go. I think that the stories used in the Quran are metaphors.
Well, taking some quran verses as metaphors actually means that we took it literally because the context only means a metaphor, do you get what I mean bro?
phoenix1 wrote:
Whether they actually happened or not is irrelevant. What is important is that these stories have to serve a purpose in our lives, teach us a lesson we can use, and only metaphors and symbols can do that.
That is load of non sense bro, so a story happened 10,000 years ago and there is a lesson in it that I will learn, would that mean the story back then was a metaphor?, what confusion is this man
phoenix1 wrote:
But, again, what is the right way to understand the Quran is up for debate. Which I'll gladly do with you.
Great, bring the Quran verses you want to debate with me and you will be welcomed,
phoenix1 wrote:
And another thing about FM, as far as I know, no one there has been banned because of what they believe. Action is only taken when users complain about another user.
Yeh bro, this constitute a clear CUT SHIRK, the Muslim webmaster of FM allows Kafiroon to mock Allah and His signs while He bans the Muslims when they mock those Kafiroon back, see this is called shirk, the webmaster considers the kafiroon more than he considers Allah and what Allah says in the Quran which his web site should be promoting, thanks for the laugh bro
phoenix1 wrote:
In your case, it was Magi who filed a complaint against you.
Who is magi,
is he the FM B****?
phoenix1 wrote:
In Danish's case, there were probably a lot more complaints.
Great, I didn't really complain nor cry as they bloody did on FM kindergarten
phoenix1 wrote:
I think Noble might've actually gotten a week ban too if I had squealed on him.
Of course Nobel has to be banned, nothing strange in here
phoenix1 wrote:
But I know that no one actually means to offend me, or harm me. So people are welcome to call me names if they want (doesn't mean I prefer or even like that, though).
But at least you don't cry as I don't, unlike them
phoenix1 wrote:
It's just that Layth tries to be fair.
Hahahahahahahahahaha, thanks for the laugh Walid, that was bloody awesome joke hahahahahahahahahaaha
phoenix1 wrote:
There are hundreds of active posters, and it's a tough job,
Really, is it tough, hahahahahahahahaha, I guess he should not do it then
phoenix1 wrote:
you have to admit. And you'll find that out too once this place has a 1000+ users.
well, by then there will be very founded, well established rules and policies that most importantly protect the Muslims and welcome the peaceful kafiroon, these rules and policies will be created by FI community and will be enforced with honest and sincere huge team as required
Salam Walid
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Mon 30 Oct, 2006 9:31 pm; edited 3 times in total
Posted:
Sun 29 Oct, 2006 2:58 pm
Al_Khidr Pawn
Status:
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Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 13
Post subject:
Salaam Ahmed
Alhamdulillah I totally agree, he (Kyle) and I want to add Danish are double faced, biased and confused kafiroon. We know what is True Islaam/Pure Islaam and it does not take a rocket scientist to see that the architects of Free-Minds Forum are controled by the hidden enemy to distort Islaam. Their attempted is to capture the minds of Muslims who follow Qur'aan alone and lead them off the straight path. The Jinn knows that once believers all over the world reawaken themselve to the Pure Teachings of Al Islaam, such power will ignite and unify the Ummah and over throw the Jinn whose only attempted is to get us to associate anything with Allah (commit shirk). There are a lot of gullable people on Free-Minds that accepts anything by the ones who control Free-Minds, thus, they accept obvious foolishnessess laid down to them disguised as Al Islaam.
Salaam Your Brother Al Khidr
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I just read that thread bro, Kyle, is a double faced, biased and confused Kafir, therefore you don't need to worry about him, if you search his comments you will see that he used the same words "Stupid" and "Ignorant" many times before, talking about homsexuals for examples, he is one hell of a power abuser and I'm planning to study all his comments since he joined FM to expose his Kufr bu when I have time to watse with that confused guy, he is nothing but a wolf in a sheep cloth
Take care man
Posted:
Sun 29 Oct, 2006 4:13 pm
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
And I don't think taking literally everything we can is the right way to go. I think that the stories used in the Quran are metaphors.
Whether they actually happened or not is irrelevant. What is important is that these stories have to serve a purpose in our lives, teach us a lesson we can use, and only metaphors and symbols can do that.
But, again, what is the right way to understand the Quran is up for debate. Which I'll gladly do with you.
Brother I first want to confirm you are a Muslim, if you are not then as a kafir you are entitled for such views. As Allaah, Glorified be he in the Quran is challenged the AlAmin on this earth to Challenge the Quran in verse 17:88.
Well no ones met the challenge for 1400 years though christians have scribed bible in the style of Quran thats in Arabic ofcours.
But if you are Muslim, well I pray to Allaah to guide you through the straight path if you feel the stories are irrelevant that if thy existed or not .
They are only 2 options
1) Allaah, Exalted he is is lying nauzbillaah.
2) You are lying.
Posted:
Sun 29 Oct, 2006 9:19 pm
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 31
Post subject:
Peace Ahmed,
Let's take the story of the Vietnam war. This is what happened:
The US invades Vietnam to try to defeat communism, but the guerillas ended up winning in a decade long conflict.
Now, there is a lesson we can learn from that. What happened back then can serve a purpose to us today.
The lesson the US leaders should've learned from Vietnam was the you cannot defeat guerilla fighters. It's impossible. If they did learn the lesson, they wouldn't have invaded Iraq.
We can take the Vietnam story symbolically:
Vietnam=Iraq, Communists=insurgents...etc.
(this is all symbolism means).
So forget about what is a symbol or metaphor and what is literal, because that debate comes in the way of truth.
The truth is that the stories in the Quran are there for a reason. They're supposed to teach us a lesson. They are examples for us.
We need to put ourselves in place of Adam and Musa and Isa, or atleast in their stories, so we can be guided by their examples.
Stephen Colbert said "I believe in America, I believe it exists."
Well, we aren't supposed to believe that those stories exist, but believe in what they are trying to convey. Their message.
If the Quran just wanted to tell us stories of great people, it would've told several others, but these stories were picked because they are useful to us right here, right now.
And here's 49:11 for you. You didn't follow what this verse says. That is why you deserved the month ban, IMO. It is irrelevant to me whether Layth or the mods are unfair and confused or not.
`O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.` (49:11)
Posted:
Mon 30 Oct, 2006 8:47 am
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 31
Post subject:
They are only 2 options
1) Allaah, Exalted he is is lying nauzbillaah.
2) You are lying.
No. You are over simplifying it.
if the Quran is lying, then we don't conclude that God is lying, we conclude that the Quran is lying. If the Quran wasn't true, it couldn't possibly be from God.
But I'm not saying that the Quran is lying.
What you are doing is what Bush did. Bush said "you either join us in the war or you are one of the terrorists."
Well, Bush didn't mention that there are other options there too.
maybe the Quran isn't lying, maybe it's just telling us examples.
All I'm saying (and this really is ALL I'm saying) is that we should take these stories as EXAMPLES.
Whether they actually happened or not is irrelevant. Can we ever prove that Moses split a sea?? no. Then why argue about it.
Why argue about something, or why even believe something, if we don't actually know it.
The only thing we can debate about is what Moses's story means, and how it can help us. And that's where our focus should be.
Posted:
Mon 30 Oct, 2006 8:56 am
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 31
Post subject:
Ahmed, how is letting people voice their opinions and ask questions "clear cut shirk?"
I thought you were going to allow people of any belief system to post on this forum, too?
Would you be committing shirk?
the Quran is lying because you can't prove that Adam's story actually happened, yet I can prove that all those stories never happened.
If you don't ban me after what just said, by your own logic, you are committing shirk.
Also,
What you say is your interpretation of the Quran. Nothing more, nothing less. You are entitled to your beliefs, so are Ayman and Kyle and Danish.
Only God knows who is actually right and who is wrong.
Ayman has backed his understandings with the Quran, so has Kyle.
And what you learned in school wasn't quranic arabic, it was modern arabic (but please forgive me if I'm wrong here since I don't know much about arabic or your school).
Both sides are presenting two different ways to look at the Quran. And just like you, I pick one side over the other based on what I found verifiably true.
Posted:
Mon 30 Oct, 2006 9:05 am
Life Pawn
Status: Age: 85 Faith: Islam
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 174
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
Ahmed, how is letting people voice their opinions and ask questions "clear cut shirk?"
I thought you were going to allow people of any belief system to post on this forum, too?
Would you be committing shirk?
the Quran is lying because you can't prove that Adam's story actually happened, yet I can prove that all those stories never happened.
If you don't ban me after what just said, by your own logic, you are committing shirk.
Also,
What you say is your interpretation of the Quran. Nothing more, nothing less. You are entitled to your beliefs, so are Ayman and Kyle and Danish.
Only God knows who is actually right and who is wrong.
Ayman has backed his understandings with the Quran, so has Kyle.
And what you learned in school wasn't quranic arabic, it was modern arabic (but please forgive me if I'm wrong here since I don't know much about arabic or your school).
Both sides are presenting two different ways to look at the Quran. And just like you, I pick one side over the other based on what I found verifiably true.
Any fact is better established
by two or three good testimonies
than by a thousand arguments.
Nathaniel Emmons
Posted:
Mon 30 Oct, 2006 10:07 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
Peace Ahmed,
Salam Walid
phoenix1 wrote:
Let's take the story of the Vietnam war. This is what happened:
The US invades Vietnam to try to defeat communism, but the guerillas ended up winning in a decade long conflict.
Sure and the story is real, right?
phoenix1 wrote:
Now, there is a lesson we can learn from that. What happened back then can serve a purpose to us today.
sure, but the story back then was real, right?
phoenix1 wrote:
The lesson the US leaders should've learned from Vietnam was the you cannot defeat guerilla fighters. It's impossible. If they did learn the lesson, they wouldn't have invaded Iraq.
cool, but that does not mean the story back then was not real
phoenix1 wrote:
We can take the Vietnam story symbolically:
Vietnam=Iraq, Communists=insurgents...etc.
And all entities you list above are for real, right?
phoenix1 wrote:
(this is all symbolism means).
symbol for what exactly?, a lesson?, fine
but that does not mean that Vietnam war was not real
phoenix1 wrote:
So forget about what is a symbol or metaphor and what is literal, because that debate comes in the way of truth.
The truth is simply these stories happened in the past for real and Allah is telling us about it, Allah does not tell unreal stories like your granny or mine
phoenix1 wrote:
The truth is that the stories in the Quran are there for a reason. They're supposed to teach us a lesson. They are examples for us.
hmmm, fine but what that has to do with the stories being real or not?
So I take the stories as real would that mean I donlt get the lesson out of it?
phoenix1 wrote:
We need to put ourselves in place of Adam and Musa and Isa,
impossible bro,
phoenix1 wrote:
or atleast in their stories, so we can be guided by their examples.
do you mean living their stories as a dream?, I just don't get it bro, how come I live a dream like Prophet Noah and the flood, or Moses or Jesus or Mohammad etc etc
I agree we take them as examples but what that has to do with the real events they went through
phoenix1 wrote:
Stephen Colbert said "I believe in America, I believe it exists."
who is Stephen Colbert?
phoenix1 wrote:
Well, we aren't supposed to believe that those stories exist, but believe in what they are trying to convey. Their message.
hahahahaha, why you are mixing apple with mangos bro?
the stories being real or not is totally something else to the lesson learnt out of it
we can learn lessons out of real and unreal stories, however the stories mentioned in the Quran are all real because Allah is not like our grannies
phoenix1 wrote:
If the Quran just wanted to tell us stories of great people, it would've told several others, but these stories were picked because they are useful to us right here, right now.
really?, how the flood is useful to us right now?
And how splitting the sea is useful to us right now?
And how the argument to care for Mary is useful to us right now?
phoenix1 wrote:
And here's 49:11 for you. You didn't follow what this verse says. That is why you deserved the month ban, IMO. It is irrelevant to me whether Layth or the mods are unfair and confused or not.
Lol mate, you just changed the subject all of a sudden from the metaphoric Quarn to my ban, hmmm let me see:
phoenix1 wrote:
`O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.` (49:11)
Excuse me bro, you are bringing a verse that talks about malice actions to innocent people or at least malice acts against those who did nothing wrong
Now the gang of Danish, Magi and Enq are infact mocking 1.5 billion Muslims directly, then we have Ayman and FM webmaster mocking 1.5 billion Muslims indirectly, they called them idol worshippers, don't you agree that this is mocking?, if it is not mocking then for me to call another one Kafir, should not be mocking
At the end of the day the Quran is giving me the right to mock those who mock my religion or mock me,
Salam
Posted:
Mon 30 Oct, 2006 1:37 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
Ahmed, how is letting people voice their opinions and ask questions "clear cut shirk?"
Walid, did I say that?, it seems you totally misunderstood what I'm talking about, the webmaster on FM does not allow the Muslims to mock those who mock the religion of Islam, now we have the gang of three along with Ayman and the webmaster of FM calling 1.5 billion Muslims pagans and idol worshippers in Mecca, would that be questions or mocking?, now let me ask you the same question differently, is calling 1.5 billion Muslims pagans, confused and idol worshipper is not mocking, if it is not then me calling others kafirs can't be mocking
phoenix1 wrote:
I thought you were going to allow people of any belief system to post on this forum, too?
of course I will
phoenix1 wrote:
Would you be committing shirk?
of course not, it seems you are basing your argument on the wrong understanding, if you allow others to call others pagans then you should allow those who were called pagans to call the first perpetrators kafiroon, see, I will allow all to view their voices freely, as long as it is to the subject that is discussed
phoenix1 wrote:
the Quran is lying because you can't prove that Adam's story actually happened, yet I can prove that all those stories never happened.
see that is the difference between me and you, I'm a firm believer and a submitter to Allah words, and you are not, now I chllenge you to prove to me beyond doubt that the story of Adam never happened along with other stories, but let's concentrate on Adam story first, I will be waiting for your conclusive evidences Walid
phoenix1 wrote:
If you don't ban me after what just said, by your own logic, you are committing shirk.
No, No you are wrong, because I;m refuting you, and again your comment that the Quran lied has no merit value until you prove it beyond doubt, and if you failed to prove it then you will be the suspected liar
phoenix1 wrote:
Also,
What you say is your interpretation of the Quran. Nothing more, nothing less. You are entitled to your beliefs, so are Ayman and Kyle and Danish.
Ayman, Kyle and Danish, produce non sensible arguments that are very easy refuted by the Arabic Quran, it is their submission to Satan that is preventing them from seeing the truth, those 3 are ones of the biggest Quran manipulators I have seen in my life, if they come here they will be refuted for good but do they dare to do it?, hahahahaha, I know that those three and many more on FM can't handle my intense debating pressure, that is why they end up crying trying to ban me, if you check Danish comments for example, you will see hundreds of times that he used the word stupid, so he is allowed to do it while double faced Kyle jump on the toes of the sincere Muslims when they say it back to them, this is ridiculous man, it is also a joke and I will expose it inshaalllah, I have a lot to say man and now, I can't be stopped unless Allah wills
phoenix1 wrote:
Only God knows who is actually right and who is wrong.
of course and also He gave us the complete guidelines in the Quran to confront those who manipulate the religion
phoenix1 wrote:
Ayman has backed his understandings with the Quran, so has Kyle.
hahahaha, most evidences provided by Ayman are the commonly corrupted archaeological evidences while Kyle only use the book of the matrix, hence is the most confused moderator on FM
phoenix1 wrote:
And what you learned in school wasn't quranic arabic, it was modern arabic (but please forgive me if I'm wrong here since I don't know much about arabic or your school).
didn't I respond to this before bro?
well there are two type of Arabic languages, Lugha Arabia Fusha, and Lugha Arabia Darga, the first is the Arabic of the Quran and all Arabic nations can dialogue using this type, the second is the localized one for each country and not all Arabic nation can communicate using their local Arabic version
now can you guess what I learnt at school?
I learnt the Fusha, the language of the Quran and the Egyptian Arabic (the localised one)
thanks
phoenix1 wrote:
Both sides are presenting two different ways to look at the Quran. And just like you, I pick one side over the other based on what I found verifiably true.
there is only one side to the Arabic Quran, it is called Lugha Arabia Fusha, please have a look at Wekipedia if you don't believe me
Salam
Posted:
Mon 30 Oct, 2006 1:57 pm
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 31
Post subject:
"really?, how the flood is useful to us right now?
And how splitting the sea is useful to us right now?
And how the argument to care for Mary is useful to us right now? "
Exactly. That's my point.
I'm not arguing about whether they actually happened or not. Let's ignore that issue for now, because it's not important.
What I am saying is that these stories have been put in there for a reason. The Quran isn't just telling us random stories to fill up pages, they're there because they are useful to us here and now.
We have to look at symbolism in those stories to get something out of them.
Posted:
Sun 05 Nov, 2006 2:15 am
Al_Khidr Pawn
Status:
Faith: Islam Gender:
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 13
Post subject:
As Salaamu Alaykum phoenix1
I have read your nonsense here in this thread and first of all you are one of the biggest Kafiroon on the Free-Minds forum. A careful analysis of your words, thoughts, philosophies, concepts, positions (on Free-Minds Forum) that you take clearly and strongly indicates that you do not believe in Islaam nor Al Qur'aan as a Believer (Mumin). Let me use some quick statements that you have placed in this thread. For example you have said:
'???????????the Quran is lying because you can't prove that Adam's story actually happened'????
So for example when Allah revealed this verse, you will actually say that it never have happened:
Qur'aan 2:30-34
30. Your Lord said to the Angelic Beings, '???????????I am placing a khalifah on the planet earth.'???? They said, '???????????Will you place therein one who will commit evil therein, and shed blood, while we praise You, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?'???? He said, '???????????I know what you do not know.'????
31. He taught Adam the names of all things, then presented them to the Angelic Beings, saying, '???????????Give me the names of these, if you are truthful.'????
32. They said, '???????????Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except what you have taught us. You are The Omniscient, Most Wise.'????
33. He said, '???????????O Adam, tell them their names.'???? When he told them their names, He said, '???????????Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of the galactic heavens and the planet earth? I know what you reveal, and what you conceal.'????
34. And when We said to the Angelic Beings, '???????????Fall prostrate before Adam.'???? They fell prostrate, except Iblis; he refused, was too proud, and one of the disbelievers.
Phoenix1 would you actually say this did not happen? Remember Allah said that His revelation (Al Qur'aan) is the truth. Remember you said, '???????????the Quran is lying because you can't prove that Adam's story actually happened'???? For one look how you use the word '???????????lying'???? in reference to the Qur'aan which came from Allah who you call '???????????God'????. Phoenix1 (the true kafir), you are missing a critical point here. If the Holy Qur'aan is the Infallible word as Allah have stated below:
Qur'aan 2:2
This scripture is infallible; It's a guidance to the select, who tremble at the mention of Allah.
Then therefore everything in the Holy Qur'aan is true so what Allah have revealed pertaining to Adam are actually true. Now you have made another ridiculous statement below:
'???????????yet I can prove that all those stories never happened.'????
Well I challenge YOU Kafir (phoenix1), prove that store never happened that I quoted from the Holy Qur'aan. Being a blind follower of the moderators, administrator of Free-Minds and accepting their ignorance and foolishness of Islaam that they teach will not do it for you.
You have said this:
'???????????Also, What you say is your interpretation of the Quran. Nothing more, nothing less. You are entitled to your beliefs, so are Ayman and Kyle and Danish. Only God knows who is actually right and who is wrong. Ayman has backed his understandings with the Quran, so has Kyle.'????
There is no compromise with Allah when it comes to truth and falsehood, so therefore phoenix1 the various conflicting interpretation of Al Qur'aan cannot be accepted, there is ONE TRUTH and that is the only TRUTH that has to be accepted, that is if you are a believer or a real Muslim. Finally phoenix1 we can prove whether or not some one's interpretation of Al Qur'aan is true or not, this is not an impossible task. Like Ahmed said if they come in this forum and bring that foolishness here, they will be defeated and refuted and I will add it will be very clear of whose evidence will be backed up by the Qur'aan. Every body will not accepted the truth especially when we deal with kafiroon like yourself who blindly follows people despite the facts and evidence that exist.
Salaam
phoenix1 wrote:
Ahmed, how is letting people voice their opinions and ask questions "clear cut shirk?"
I thought you were going to allow people of any belief system to post on this forum, too?
Would you be committing shirk?
the Quran is lying because you can't prove that Adam's story actually happened, yet I can prove that all those stories never happened.
If you don't ban me after what just said, by your own logic, you are committing shirk.
Also,
What you say is your interpretation of the Quran. Nothing more, nothing less. You are entitled to your beliefs, so are Ayman and Kyle and Danish.
Only God knows who is actually right and who is wrong.
Ayman has backed his understandings with the Quran, so has Kyle.
And what you learned in school wasn't quranic arabic, it was modern arabic (but please forgive me if I'm wrong here since I don't know much about arabic or your school).
Both sides are presenting two different ways to look at the Quran. And just like you, I pick one side over the other based on what I found verifiably true.
Last edited by Al_Khidr on Sun 05 Nov, 2006 4:05 am; edited 2 times in total
Posted:
Sun 05 Nov, 2006 3:56 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
"really?, how the flood is useful to us right now?
And how splitting the sea is useful to us right now?
And how the argument to care for Mary is useful to us right now? "
Exactly. That's my point.
I'm not arguing about whether they actually happened or not. Let's ignore that issue for now, because it's not important.
brother phonix, and I'm not arguing that there is a lesson in it, yeh there is, but what I'm saying is this:
Allah never told us that the stories didn't happen for real, in fact all what He said that they happened for real
now let me ask you, why you don't want to believe Allah whe He told us that the stories are real?
let's take the example of the dispute that happened when a few men wanted to take care of the baby girl Mary, Allah told Mohammad in the story, "You were not with them when they threw their pens", now this clearly means that the story is for real
yeh i concede there is a lesson in all these stories, now, do you concede that the stories told in the Quran happened for real?
phoenix1 wrote:
What I am saying is that these stories have been put in there for a reason.
of course they have been put for a reaosn, and I accept that there is a lesson in it, now do you accept that stories happened for real?
phoenix1 wrote:
The Quran isn't just telling us random stories to fill up pages, they're there because they are useful to us here and now.
great and I have no problem with that, it seems that you are the one who is having problem in believing if these stories hapened for real
we have two different issues in here:
1) the stories are for real or not
2) there is a lesson in it or not
please don't mix these two seperate issues
phoenix1 wrote:
We have to look at symbolism in those stories to get something out of them.
well fine, and I have no problem with that, I won't call it symbolism though, for example the story of prophet LUT
did it happen for real or not?, the main lesson in it is obvious, that homosexuality is forbidden, and this is obvous for a child, now to te other issue, is the story real or not?
you say it does not matter?
I say it does because Allah never said that these stories are symbols, if they are symbols, why Allah did not tell us that?, if they are symbol, why Allah tell Mohammad that he was not with them when they threw their pens?
see it is you who is saying unfounded opinions about these stories
if the lessons in these stories are obvious to you as they are obious to me then you don't need to dispute that these stories are for real or not however all what you do is disputing that they are not real and this means that Allah lied to us (Allah forbids)
Salam
Posted:
Sun 05 Nov, 2006 2:15 pm
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 31
Post subject:
Ahmed, doesn't the quran say several times that God's message is explained in parables?
I know there are two issues, and that's what I was explaining to you.
I am not mixing the two, you are.
Whether the stories have lessons or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether they happened or not.
Real stories can be allegories, as I showed with my Vietnam and Iraq example.
We agree that the stories have lessons, which means they are allegories. To understand that lesson, we are substituting ourselves in place of the prophets.
We don't agree on whether these stories actually happened or not.
Now, I would have no problem believing these stories actually happened if there was proof that they happened. There isn't.
I can never verify that claim. I have never seen a sea split in two, or a stick turn into a snake, or any other supernatural incident. What reason is there for me to believe in these stories with invisible beings and magic and what not?
Posted:
Mon 06 Nov, 2006 5:03 am
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 31
Post subject: Please PM next time
. Thanks
Posted:
Mon 06 Nov, 2006 5:04 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
Ahmed, doesn't the quran say several times that God's message is explained in parables?
Salam Walid
I donlt think so bro, I never read as such, can you please show one exaple out of those several times?, cheers
phoenix1 wrote:
I know there are two issues, and that's what I was explaining to you.
I am not mixing the two, you are.
Really?
So it was me who opened the subject questioning the reality of these stories, right?
phoenix1 wrote:
Whether the stories have lessons or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether they happened or not.
Real stories can be allegories, as I showed with my Vietnam and Iraq example.
Excuse me man, you showed nothing indeed, or should I say that what you showed refuted your self, i.e. when you mentioned Vietnam, you have mentioned something that happened for real, and obviously the Americans cared less about any lessons learnt from your allegory of Vietnam
phoenix1 wrote:
We agree that the stories have lessons, which means they are allegories.
excuse me, any story can have lessons, now having a lesson or not has nothing to do of being allergy especially when our God is the one who telling us these stories
phoenix1 wrote:
To understand that lesson, we are substituting ourselves in place of the prophets.
hahaha, that was total non sense man, how can you substitute yourself in place of Noah?
phoenix1 wrote:
We don't agree on whether these stories actually happened or not.
of course, you say they didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t happen, I say they did because Allah is the story teller not a confused human
phoenix1 wrote:
Now, I would have no problem believing these stories actually happened if there was proof that they happened. There isn't.
There is of course, it is your God telling you as such that they happened
phoenix1 wrote:
I can never verify that claim.
of course because you suffer from the flowing:
1) you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t know what Allah is
2) you never believe you God in what He tells you
phoenix1 wrote:
I have never seen a sea split in two, or a stick turn into a snake, or any other supernatural incident. What reason is there for me to believe in these stories with invisible beings and magic and what not?
sounds like confused Kyle, any way the reason for you to believe is simply Allah told you as such and He asked you to believe in the UNSEEN and because you didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see these stories but you to were told to you by Allah then you should follow 2:3 that tells you the believers are those who believe in the Unseen
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