Post subject: 3:79 vs 39:53 Prophet's Slave/Worshippers
Salam,
Is there a contradiction from the following verse
We learn from 3:79 that it is unlikely that a prophet have slaves
3:79 It was not to a human that God gives him The Book and the judgment/rule and the prophethood then he says to the people: "Be/become worshippers/slaves to me, from other than God". And but: "Be knowledgeable Lord worshippers with what you were teaching The Book and with what you were studying ".
then...
From these following verse, the prophet(who of course received The Book), is asked to address people as his slaves/worshipers[?]
39:53 Say: "You my worshippers/slaves those who neglected/ignored on themselves, do not despair from God's mercy, that truly God forgives the crimes all/all together, that truly He is the forgiving, the merciful."
to who is 39:53 is addressed to?
salam
Posted:
Thu 02 Oct, 2008 1:28 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
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Post subject:
loli wrote:
Salam,
Salam and happy Eid
loli wrote:
Is there a contradiction from the following verse
Let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s see
loli wrote:
We learn from 3:79 that it is unlikely that a prophet have slaves
3:79 It was not to a human that God gives him The Book and the judgment/rule and the prophethood then he says to the people: "Be/become worshippers/slaves to me, from other than God". And but: "Be knowledgeable Lord worshippers with what you were teaching The Book and with what you were studying ".
Let me bring Free-Islam translation in here as I have finsished the draft for sura 3,
It is not fit for a human that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and prophethood, then he says to the people: Be servants to me rather than to Allah; but rather (he should say): Be worshippers of the Lord because of your teaching to the Book and because of what you were studying.
-> Yes, indeed, no prophet or messenger should have ever done it
loli wrote:
then...
From these following verse, the prophet(who of course received The Book), is asked to address people as his slaves/worshipers[?]
loli wrote:
39:53 Say: "You my worshippers/slaves those who neglected/ignored on themselves, do not despair from God's mercy, that truly God forgives the crimes all/all together, that truly He is the forgiving, the merciful."
loli wrote:
to who is 39:53 is addressed to?
salam
Good question, however I can see that this one must cause confusion to those who never studied the Arabic grammar, I actually believe that it is very well planned by Allah to cause further confusion to the enemy of Allah who try to dispute His signs in His Quran, let me explain and you should be struck to the mighty plan of Allah
Let me first bring verse 53 from Sura 39 in its original language first:
قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَىٰ أَنْفُسِهِمْ لَا تَقْنَطُوا مِنْ رَحْمَةِ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيعًا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ (53)
[Al Quran ; 39:53]
-> In the above verse, there is a very complicated grammar rule that I believe many native Arabic speaker are not aware of it or even understand it, the Quran should make it easy for us to understand inshaallah
-> The grammar rule is related to something that is called اسلوب نداء , Islub Nidaa, i.e. The Style of Calling, simply it is a style or more than one style that is/are used when calling other people, the Islub Nidaa is obvious from the device يَا Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¦, YaÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¦, i.e. OÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¦, which is commonly used in Arabic to call others, now, if what comes after the device Ya is Majrur with a Kasirah due to any grammatical Irab, i.e. eeee, then we may substitute the kasirah with a the letter يَ , Y, with a Fatiha on top of it, i.e. pronounced eeya
-> Let me show you a clear example that is almost identical to 39:53, AND AMAZINGLY in the same Sura (Subhan Allah), in this example we will see it the Nidaa in a different style, the style where what comes after the Ya is only Majrur with a Kasirah:
Say: O servants (of Allah) who have believed! Fear (Allah) your Lord; for those who do good in this world is good, and land of Allah is spacious; only the patient will be paid back their reward in full without measure. [Al Quran ; 39:10] قُلْ يَا عِبَادِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا رَبَّكُمْ ۚ لِلَّذِينَ أَحْسَنُوا فِي هَٰذِهِ الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةٌ ۗ وَأَرْضُ اللَّهِ وَاسِعَةٌ ۗ إِنَّمَا يُوَفَّى الصَّابِرُونَ أَجْرَهُمْ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ (10)
-> See how clear it is: قُلْ يَا عِبَادِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا , Qul Ya Ibaady Alazeena Amanu, can you see how the word عِبَادِ , Ibaad pronounced Ibaady due to the kasirah on the last letter Dal DOES NOT HAVE THE LETTER يَ , Y at the end, in contrary to what we have seen in 39:53, letÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s bring 39:53 in here with the proper translation:
Say: O servents (of Allah) who has transgressed against themselves! Do not despair from the mesy of Allah, indeed, Allah forgives the sins all together, indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. [Al Quran ; 39:53]
قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَىٰ أَنْفُسِهِمْ لَا تَقْنَطُوا مِنْ رَحْمَةِ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيعًا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ (53)
-> See: قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ أَسْرَفُوا , Qul Ya Ibaadya Alazeena Asrafu, can you see how the word عِبَادِيَ , Ibaad pronounced Ibaadya DOES HAVE THE LETTER Y يَ , Y with a Fatiha on top of it, therefore it has to be pronounced Ibaadya
Let me put the two sentences again under each other as they appeared in both verse 39:10 & 39:53 so you can compare the two different styles of calling:
39:10, Say: O servants (of Allah) who have believed! ,
39:53, Say: O servants (of Allah) who has transgressed against themselves! ,
Can you see both styles of calling in the above, very sticking indeed, here are the two different styles explained again:
A) Style of calling # 1: No LETTER يَ , Y at the end, but the Kasirah must be pronounced., i.e. eeeee
B) Style of calling # 2: LETTER يَ , Y is added at the end to substitute the Kasirah (eee) pronounciation, but a Fatiha (aaa) must be pronounced, i.e. eeeya
The above does not work the same in the case of having the letter يَ , Y attached to any noun to imply the meaning of My whatever. This is how it should work:
If I say: O my people, then the letter يَ , Y at the end of the word to imply My, MUST BE OMMITED, here is a couple of examples from the Quran:
And when Musa said to his people: O my people! Remember the favour of Allah upon you when He raised among you prophets, and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to anyone among the worlds. [Al Quran ; 5:20]
وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ اذْكُرُواْ نِعْمَةَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ جَعَلَ فِيكُمْ أَنبِيَاء وَجَعَلَكُم مُّلُوكًا وَآتَاكُم مَّا لَمْ يُؤْتِ أَحَدًا مِّن الْعَالَمِينَ (20)
-> See: وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ, Wa Iz Qal Musa Li Qawmihi Ya QAWM, i.e. And when Musa said to his people: O my people!, see how the letter يَ , Y that suppose to be attached at the end of the word QAWM, must be ommited, this is because the Calling Ya preceded it.
Here is more examples for you, and in every example, when the entity being called is expressed as My Entity, the letter يَ , Y at the end of the word to imply My, MUST BE OMMITED
لَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَى قَوْمِهِ فَقَالَ يَا قَوْمِ اعْبُدُواْ اللَّهَ مَا لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرُهُ إِنِّيَ أَخَافُ عَلَيْكُمْ عَذَابَ يَوْمٍ عَظِيمٍ (59) Indeed We sent Nuh to his people. He (Nuh) said: O my people! Worship Allah, you have no god other than Him; certainly I fear upon you the torture of a great day. [Al Quran ; 7:59]
قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ لَيْسَ بِي ضَلاَلَةٌ وَلَكِنِّي رَسُولٌ مِّن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ (61) He said: O my people! There is no error in me, but I am an messenger from the Lord of the worlds. [Al Quran ; 7:61]
وَإِلَى عَادٍ أَخَاهُمْ هُوداً قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ مَا لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرُهُ أَفَلاَ تَتَّقُونَ (65) And to Ad, their brother Hud, He (Hud) said: O my people! Worship Allah, you have no god other than Him; will you not then fear(Him)? [Al Quran ; 7:65]
قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ لَيْسَ بِي سَفَاهَةٌ وَلَكِنِّي رَسُولٌ مِّن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ (67) He (Hud) said: O my people! There is no foolishness in me, but I am an messenger from the Lord of the worlds. [Al Quran ; 7:67]
وَإِلَى ثَمُودَ أَخَاهُمْ صَالِحًا قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ مَا لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرُهُ قَدْ جَاءتْكُم بَيِّنَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ هَذِهِ نَاقَةُ اللّهِ لَكُمْ آيَةً فَذَرُوهَا تَأْكُلْ فِي أَرْضِ اللّهِ وَلاَ تَمَسُّوهَا بِسُوَءٍ فَيَأْخُذَكُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (73) And to Thamood, their brother Salih. He (Salih) said: O my people! Worship Allah, you have no god other than Him; indeed a sign has come to you from your Lord; this is the she-camel of Allah for you, a sign, therefore leave her to eat in the land of Allah, and do not touch her with any harm, otherwise a painful torture will overtake you. [Al Quran ; 7:73]
فَتَوَلَّى عَنْهُمْ وَقَالَ يَا قَوْمِ لَقَدْ أَبْلَغْتُكُمْ رِسَالَةَ رَبِّي وَنَصَحْتُ لَكُمْ وَلَكِن لاَّ تُحِبُّونَ النَّاصِحِينَ (79) Then he (Salih) turned away from them and said: O my people!I have certainly delivered to you the message of my Lord, and I advised you but you do not love the advisors. [Al Quran ; 7:79]
Now, looking again at verse 39:53:
Say: O servents (of Allah) who has transgressed against themselves! Do not despair from the mesy of Allah, indeed, Allah forgives the sins all together, indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. [Al Quran ; 39:53]
قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَىٰ أَنْفُسِهِمْ لَا تَقْنَطُوا مِنْ رَحْمَةِ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيعًا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ (53)
-> THE LETTER Y يَ , in the word عِبَادِيَ , Ibaadya, CANNOT MEAN MY because it should have been omitted if that was the case.
I hope I made it clear
Salam
Posted:
Thu 02 Oct, 2008 9:38 am
loli Pawn
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Post subject: Re:
salam,
Happy eid to you too brother,
Thank you for your prompt response, i really appreciate it. I need some time to validate it. Will let you know once im done..
Thanx!
salam
Posted:
Thu 02 Oct, 2008 12:08 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: Re:
loli wrote:
salam,
Happy eid to you too brother,
Thank you for your prompt response, i really appreciate it. I need some time to validate it. Will let you know once im done..
Thanx!
salam
Salam
No worries, however you may only find another explanation which I could not buy, the other explanation is the one held by almost all scholars, their explanation is simply that, Mohammed was repeating what Allah is saying, as if Allah is the one who is saying Ya Ibaadya ....., which maybe a possibility but only if we omit the last Ya in Ibaady, as I explained, I however I see their understanding non plausible because in such case the word Qul should also be ommitted, let's ave a look at the following verse:
And if My servants ask you concerning Me, then indeed I am very near; I answer the calls of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should listen to Me and believe in Me, that they may walk in the right path. [Al Quran ; 2:186]
-> See, وَإِذَا سَأَلَكَ عِبَادِي عَنِّي, i.e. And if My servants ask you concerning Me, now instead of we read the word Qul, i.e. Say, we see that Allah took the stand Himself to answer the question instead of Mohammed answering it via an order from Allah: فَإِنِّي قَرِيبٌ أُجِيبُ دَعْوَةَ الدَّاعِ إِذَا دَعَانِ فَلْيَسْتَجِيبُواْ لِي وَلْيُؤْمِنُواْ بِي لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْشُدُونَ, i.e. then indeed I am very near; I answer the calls of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should listen to Me and believe in Me, that they may walk in the right path.. See, NO QUL, Say.. word, therefore if Allah took the stand in 39:53 to answer whatever question (as He assumingly did in 39:10), then the following should have happened:
1) The word Qul should have been dropped from both verses, 39:10 & 39:53, as I have shown in 2:186
2) The last letter Y in the word Ibaady as it appeared in 39:53 should have been ommitted as we have seen in 39:10
It explains that this type of occurrence is actually a norm and this kind of occurrence is called Iltifat(Lit:'conversion', or 'turning one's face to')
It also explained that there is a reason for each shifts of pronouns that happens. (eg to establishes intimate communication between God and the believers, thus making them more receptive to the cognitive element of the message which is to follow.)
while all other iltifat is generally acceptable, for 39:53 is describe as the following "strains the normal rules of syntax" and "puzzling"
i notice that you have give a couple of example, im repeating here so that i understand your message
Quote:
If I say: O my people, then the letter يَ , Y at the end of the word to imply My, MUST BE OMMITED, here is a couple of examples from the Quran:
yes you have give a number of example, mostly when the prophets address to their people. And i can say it follows the rule that you gave quoted above.
it is also noticed that the arabic text in 39:10 is also following the rule that you gave.
Quote:
-> See how clear it is: قُلْ يَا عِبَادِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا , Qul Ya Ibaady Alazeena Amanu, can you see how the word عِبَادِ , Ibaad pronounced Ibaady due to the kasirah on the last letter Dal DOES NOT HAVE THE LETTER يَ , Y at the end, in contrary to what we have seen in 39:53, letÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s bring 39:53 in here with the proper translation:
however when you translate 39:10, "My" is omitted comparing this to the all other example given, QAWM is spelled without the letter يَ at the end of the word but "my"included in the translation.
Quote:
Say: O servants (of Allah) who have believed! Fear (Allah) your Lord; for those who do good in this world is good, and land of Allah is spacious; only the patient will be paid back their reward in full without measure.
[Al Quran ; 39:10]
next if we compare to 30:53's translation
Quote:
Let me put the two sentences again under each other as they appeared in both verse 39:10 & 39:53 so you can compare the two different styles of calling:
39:10, Say: O servants (of Allah) who have believed! ,
39:53, Say: O servants (of Allah) who has transgressed against themselves! ,
Can you see both styles of calling in the above, very sticking indeed, here are the two different styles explained again:
A) Style of calling # 1: No LETTER يَ , Y at the end, but the Kasirah must be pronounced., i.e. eeeee
B) Style of calling # 2: LETTER يَ , Y is added at the end to substitute the Kasirah (eee) pronounciation, but a Fatiha (aaa) must be pronounced, i.e. eeeya
The translation with of without the يَ is the same?
i guess it does not solve the problem doesn't it?
Please let me know if i understood you properly bro,
i will be out for couple days for Eid, so expect some delay in response.
Thank you for your effort!
salam
Posted:
Thu 02 Oct, 2008 7:12 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
It explains that this type of occurrence is actually a norm and this kind of occurrence is called Iltifat(Lit:'conversion', or 'turning one's face to')
Yes mate, I am fully aware of the Iltifat and what it is, however that can not be iltifat becauuse you can not have an iltifat HALF WAY THROUGH A SENTENCE
the sentence started with the word Qul....., i.e. Say.... therefore what comes after still following the pespective used which in this case directing a speech at some one to say something
2:186 is a clear example to such iltifat, in which the persepective changed without saying the word Qul, i.e. a new sentecne has started with an iltifat from another entity perspective
I believe their explanation is not right
loli wrote:
It also explained that there is a reason for each shifts of pronouns that happens. (eg to establishes intimate communication between God and the believers, thus making them more receptive to the cognitive element of the message which is to follow.)
ONLY IF QUL IS OMMITTED AS I EXPLAINED AND SHOWED in 2:186
loli wrote:
while all other iltifat is generally acceptable, for 39:53 is describe as the following "strains the normal rules of syntax" and "puzzling"
Well, what is puzzling is what they claim, and indeed, 39:10 in conjuction with 39:53 expose their confusion.
loli wrote:
i notice that you have give a couple of example, im repeating here so that i understand your message
Quote:
If I say: O my people, then the letter يَ , Y at the end of the word to imply My, MUST BE OMMITED, here is a couple of examples from the Quran:
loli wrote:
yes you have give a number of example, mostly when the prophets address to their people. And i can say it follows the rule that you gave quoted above.
Well, in the whole Quran you will never see it said as Ya My Qawm while the last Ya is there, why then it is in 39:53?
it does not have to be O My People......, here is another example where we read Ya Ibaady, directly by Allah, so we expect to MUST SEE IT WITOUT THE LAST YA:
O My servants! No fearshall be upon you this day, nor shall you grieve. [YThe Quran ; 43:68]
يَا عِبَادِ لَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْكُمُ الْيَوْمَ وَلَا أَنْتُمْ تَحْزَنُونَ (68)
-> See, Allah is talking directly to His servants while calling them with the device Ya: يَا عِبَادِ , i.e O My servants, see how the last Y MUST BE OMMITTED
If the Ya is not ommitted after a Style of calling then I firmly believe the Ya is not to mean My, rather to indicate a relationship to an ommitted entity WITH A STRESS
For example Ya Ibadya (Al Rahman), i.e. O servants (of Al Rahman), or simply, O servants
loli wrote:
it is also noticed that the arabic text in 39:10 is also following the rule that you gave.
And if it does not, then I believe it can never mean My, rather what I just explained above
loli wrote:
The translation with of without the يَ is the same?
Yes
loli wrote:
i guess it does not solve the problem doesn't it?
It does, because as I said it is one of the many styles of calling, this is how flexable the Arabic language
At least my explanation is more logical than the brothers of Islamic Awarness web site (whom I highly respect), they want to convince us that an Iltifat can happen half way through a sentence, to the contrary, Iltifat can only happen at the start of a new sentence, makes sense to you?
loli wrote:
Please let me know if i understood you properly bro,
Yes, you do, but it seems that you do not understand that the iltifat (i.e. change of the person persepctive) can only happen at the start of a new sentence.
loli wrote:
i will be out for couple days for Eid, so expect some delay in response.
Take your time mate, this is not a debate anyway
loli wrote:
Thank you for your effort!
salam
No worries
Take care
Posted:
Thu 02 Oct, 2008 7:43 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Salam brother loli
I have checked a few grammar books that I have, they claim in such books that the Ya of My, most likely be ommitted if it comes attached to a word after an Islub Nidaa, i.e. after a style of calling, i.e. you may or may not ommit the last Ya, which I accept, the reason to do so is simply to make the pronounciation easy on the tongue
Therefore, 39:53 may be meaning "My servants" and they will be left with the flawed iltifat explanation to explain why it happened such way, in this case the explanation of the traditionalists is far more acceotable, which is Mohammed was repeating the words of Allah, I said their flawed exlpanation of iltifat because as far as I am aware of the Arabic language, you cannot start an iltifat half way through a sentence, it makes great sense to start an iltifat at the beginning of a new sentence
The Arabic language is very deep BTW, I have a very complex grammar book that is based on the Quran, it is in Arabic though, I cherish this book because my father sent it to me from Egypt just before he died in 2006, I had a read at some parts of it yesterday and not to my surprise they confirm that many Arabic sentences can accomadate more than one Irab (grammatical positions) and all should be right still, they actually brought many examples from the Quran explaining the different grammatical positions in conjuction with Balagha and Styles, it may be a good idea that I scan a few of these pages then translate it and post it in here to show everyone the flexability of the Arabic language
The reason I mentioned the above is, there is no question that I accept the Style of Iltifat, and it would have been my great pleasure to confirm what the brothers at Islamic-Awarness stated regarding 39:53, I used many of their excellent explanations myself in the past and possibly on this web site too, but to claim that Iltifat can happen half way through a sentece is way too fetched for me to accept, hence my rejection to their explanation then trying to understand the complexity of the Style of Calling in the Arabic Language and I can assure you that it is very complex
Salam
Posted:
Fri 03 Oct, 2008 8:30 am
loli Pawn
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Post subject:
Salam bro Ahmed
Quote:
Yes mate, I am fully aware of the Iltifat and what it is, however that can not be iltifat becauuse you can not have an iltifat HALF WAY THROUGH A SENTENCE
id really hope that you could give a reference for this. scanning&translating the grammer book that you mentioned would be a good idea.
Im not sure about half way through a sentence follwing is some example from the Islamic awareness website
Say, 'If there were on the earth angels walking about in peace and security, We would certainly have sent down for them from the sky an angel as a messenger' (17:95).
The first part of the verse is just saying a possible fact, next we can see that "We" is used even though the starting of the ayat starts with "Say"
Quote:
Well, in the whole Quran you will never see it said as Ya My Qawm while the last Ya is there, why then it is in 39:53?
it does not have to be O My People......, here is another example where we read Ya Ibaady, directly by Allah, so we expect to MUST SEE IT WITOUT THE LAST YA:
O My servants! No fearshall be upon you this day, nor shall you grieve.
[YThe Quran ; 43:68]
-> See, Allah is talking directly to His servants while calling them with the device Ya: يَا عِبَادِ , i.e O My servants, see how the last Y MUST BE OMMITTED
Agreed!
Quote:
If the Ya is not ommitted after a Style of calling then I firmly believe the Ya is not to mean My, rather to indicate a relationship to an ommitted entity WITH A STRESS
For example Ya Ibadya (Al Rahman), i.e. O servants (of Al Rahman), or simply, O servants
if what you say is true. i.e the extra "Ya" is to indicate stress to the omitted entity.. then we are one step closer to solving the problem.
i do hope that you could scan and translate the grammer book that you mentioned.
Posted:
Mon 06 Oct, 2008 11:53 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
loli wrote:
Salam bro Ahmed
Salam brother loli
Quote:
Yes mate, I am fully aware of the Iltifat and what it is, however that can not be iltifat becauuse you can not have an iltifat HALF WAY THROUGH A SENTENCE
loli wrote:
id really hope that you could give a reference for this. scanning&translating the grammer book that you mentioned would be a good idea.
Sorry mate, what Ii said is my own conclusion based on understanding what Iltifat is, however after doing a few reseaeches, it seems that you can use such style even half way through the sentence, in this article about iltifat, it does not say explicitly as such but they show examples from the Quran where it seems that you may do it half way through a sentence, so I retreat what I said and consequently the explanation of the brothers in Islamic-Awarness is valid, the reason I stated as such is possibly my wrong understanding to the Iltifat purpose which as I understood it means that the speaker is changing perspective, however what I found that the iltifat is used to to take the attention of the listener which akes sense to me, therefore I stand corrected that the explanation of Islamic Awarness is very valid, and it makes more sense thanmy explanation indeed
here is the Iltifat Article and I promise when I have time I will translate it for you, in the mean time you may seek the help for any Arabic speaker to walk you though it:
معنى الالتفات في الاصطلاح:
ومعناه في مصطلح علم البلاغة هو العدول من أسلوب في الكلام إلى أسلوب آخر مخالف للأول... وهذا من أعم التعريفات وأخصرها، وعرفه قدامة، فقال: هو أن يكون المتكلم آخذا في معنى، فكأنه يعترضه إما شك فيه أو ظن بأن رادا يرد عليه قوله، أو سائلا يسأله عن سببه، فيعود راجعا على ما قدمه، فإما أن يؤكده أو يذكر سببه
وأما الزمخشري، فكان له في الالتفات رأي ، حمله من بعده كثير من المفسرين والبلاغيين ورددوه، نورد هنا جزءا منه، يتناسب وما نحن فيه، فإن قلت لم عدل عن لفظ الخطاب، قلت هذا يسمى الالتفات في علم البيان، وقد يكون من الغيبة إلى الخطاب ومن الخطاب إلى الغيبة، ومن الغيبة إلى التكلم.
وأرى من مجموع هذه التعريفات وغيرها أن الصفة العامة التي تشترك فيها هي العدول عن كلام إلى غيره، أو هو الخروج عن كلام منتظم إلى غيره، وهذا ما مثله الالتفات في السورة،فهو قد نفى الرتابة عن النص وخرج به من نسق إلى نسق.
وهذا ما دعته الدراسات الأسلوبية الحديثة انحرافا، والنتيجة الطبيعية التي ترتبت على ذلك هي النظر إلى الأسلوب الأدبي باعتباره انحرافا عن الأسلوب المعياري، من حيث أنه منبه متميز يحدث استجابة متميزة، ولقد شاعت عبارة "فاليري" التي قال فيها إن الأسلوب هو في جوهره انحراف عن قاعدة ما، وشاركه في ذلك الرأي كثير من النقاد ودعوا إلى ضرورة أن يتعود الباحث تماما على قاعدة أولا، حتى يتمكن من اكتشاف الانحرافات المتفرعة عنها.
ولم يكتف أصحاب هذا المنهج بعدّ الانحرافات وبيانها، ولكنهم كشفوا عن القصد من ورائها، وهذا ما سنراه حين التعرض لموضوع الالتفات، وأغراضه التفصيلية في السورة.
الالتفات في السورة:
لم يقطع هذا الأسلوب، الذي ظهر في السورة، صلته بالالتفات بوصفه أسلوبا من أساليب العرب والعربية، ولما كان الأمر كذلك، فلا مندوحة لنا من التعرض لخصائص الالتفات، بوصفه أسلوبا يرمي إلى لفت انتباه السامع، وجذبه إلى النص، حتى يغدو مكونا من مكوناته، بما يلتحم معه ويندغم فيه، وقد تنبه إلى ذلك البلاغيون والمفسرون وهم يتذوقون آيات القرآن الكريم.
وقد تعرض حازم القرطاجني لأثر الالتفات العام فقال: وهم يسأمون الاستمرار على ضمير المتكلم أو ضمير مخاطب، فينتقلون من الخطاب إلى الغيبة، وكذلك أيضا يتلاعب المتكلم بضميره، فتارة يجعله تاء على جهة الإخبار عن نفسه، وتارة يجعله كافا، فيجعل نفسه مخاطبا، وتارة يجعله هاء، فيقيم نفسه مقام الغائب.
فلذلك كان الكلام المتوالي فيه ضمير المتكلم والمخاطب لا يستطاب، وإنما يحسن الانتقال من بعضها إلى بعض، وهو معنوي لا لفظي، وشرطه أن يكون الضمير في المنتقل إليه عائدا في نفس الأمر إلى الملتفت عنه.
ولم يبتعد المحدثون كثيرا عن آراء البلاغيين العرب، فقد نقل لنا الدكتور صلاح فضل رأيا ل"شلوفسكي" يقول فيه: عندما نختبر القوانين العامة للتلقي نجد أنه في الوقت الذي تصل فيه الأفعال إلى أن تصير عادة تتحول إلى الآلية، هذه الآلية المتولدة عن التعود هي التي تحكم قوانين خطابنا النثري.
وقد أدلى الدكتور محمد مفتاح برأي مماثل فقال: واللغة الأدبية: تحرير من الآلية؛ لأنها ترتكز على مجموعة من الاحتمالات السياقية المنتظرة، ومدى وقوع ما يتوقعه المتلقي.
وقد جاء الالتفات في السورة، في كل مرة، بعد حدوث النسق وانتظامه، فحدثت حينها المغايرة.
أسلوب الالتفات من الغيبة إلى الخطاب:
لا يعزب عن الذهن أن أسلوب الالتفات من الغيبة إلى الخطاب، يوفر جو المواجهة والصراحة، ويجلي مادة الخطاب ويعلي من شانها، ويبث فيها الحياة، كما يضفي عليها الراهنية، وهو أسلوب يقصر المسافة بين المرسل والمستقبل ويحصرها...
جاء ذلك في قوله تعالى: (فاتقون)، بعد أن كان الخطاب جاريا على طريق الغياب: (ينزل الملائكة بالروح من أمره على من يشاء من عباده)،
وهنا سؤال ، وهو ، لماذا تم الالتفات في هذا الموقع؟
ولماذا حصلت المغايرة بين قوله: (ينزل الملائكة) وقوله: (فاتقون)؟
وتكمن الإجابة في خصوصية أسلوب الالتفات، وفي التباين القائم بين الموضوعين، فالأول أمر عقدي، وإنزال الملائكة وما تبعه فعل لله، يتبعه إيمان، والإيمان شأنه الرسوخ والاستقرار في القلب...
وأما مادة (فاتقون) فهي من الأحكام التكليفية العملية، ومحلها الجوارح، وشأنها الظهور والانكشاف والحضور، وثمة تباين واختلاف بين شكل الخطاب في: (لا إله إلا الله)، التي جاءت على طريقة الخبر، وشكل الخطاب في (فاتقون) التي جاءت على طريقة الطلب، وقد فرق الرازي بين الأمرين قائلا: فاعلم أن النفس لها قوتان، إحداهما: استعدادها لقبول صور الموجودات من عالم الغيب، وهذه القوة المسماة بالقوة النظرية، وسعادة هذه القوة في حصول المعارف، وأشرف المعارف وأجلها معرفة أنه لا إله إلا هو، وإليه الإشارة بقوله: (أن أنذروا أنه لا إله إلا أنا)، والقوة الثانية للنفس: استعدادها للتصرف في أجسام هذا العالم، وهذه القوة هي القوة المسماة بالقوة العملية، وسعادة هذه القوة بالإتيان بالأعمال الصالحة، وأشرف الأعمال الصالحة هو عبودية الله تعالى، وإليه الإشارة بقوله: (فاتقون)، لكنه كما نرى لم يفسر سبب تقمص كل موضوع شكلا لغويا ونمطا أسلوبيا مغايرا للآخر. وقد أثبت حصول الالتفات في هذه الآية أبو السعود، فبين أنه"خطاب للمستعجلين على طريقة الالتفات".
وحين يريد القرآن لأمر أن يتم، أو يمتثل،فإنه يوجه الخطاب إلى المكلف صريحا وواضحا، مراعيا بذلك الفروق في مستويات المتلقين، جاء ذلك في قوله تعالى: (فلا تضربوا لله الأمثال..)، وذلك بعد نص جرى على طريقة الغياب."وهذا الالتفات إلى الخطاب للإيذان بالاهتمام بشأن النهي".
وهذا يذكر بطبيعة النص القرآني وغايته، وهو جعل آيات الأحكام صريحة واضحة، مع غنى دلالاتها وكثافة عباراتها، وقد أفاد الالتفات المعنى في تتمة الآية: (إن الله يعلم وأنتم لا تعلمون)، وعززه، لأن طرح هذه الفكرة إلى الناس يستأهل المواجهة، لما لطبيعة الإنسان من اعتداد بعلمه وصعوبة اعتراف المرء بجهله، وإن كان.
ويوصل الالتفاتُ إلى المخاطب النصَّ (ليكفروا بما آتيناهم فتمتعوا...) إلى الذروة، وذلك بما يوفره هذا الأسلوب من مواجهة ومباشرة، وقد تحدث المفسرون عن هذا الأسلوب، عند تعرضهم لتحول النص إلى الخطاب في سورة الفاتحة، فقال البيضاوي: "ثم إنه ذكر الحقيق بالحمد، ووصف بصفات عظام، تميز بها عن سائر الذوات، وتعلق العلم بمعلوم معين، خوطب بذلك، أي يا من هذا شأنه نخصك بالعبادة والاستعانة، ليكون أدل على الاختصاص، وللترقي من البرهان إلى العيان، والانتقال من الغيبة إلى الشهود، فكأن المعلوم صار عيانا، والمعقول شاهدا والغيبة حضورا...".
وصرح أبو السعود بهذه المرتبة التي وصل إليها النص بالالتفات، فقال: "(فتمتعوا) أمر تهديد والالتفات إلى الخطاب للإيذان بتناهي السخط"
ولا يخفى أن توجيه الإهانة والتقريع للإنسان في وجهه أشد إيلاما عليه، وأكثر استصغارا لشأنه من رميه بها غائبا، وعلى هذا جاء قوله تعالى: (تالله لتسألن عما كنتم تفترون)، بعد قوله تعالى: (ويجعلون لما لا يعلمون نصيبا مما رزقناهم)، ولهذا أثر نفسي بالغ.
أسلوب الالتفات من الخطاب إلى الغيبة:
يقصي الالتفات في قوله: (فلا تستعجلوه سبحانه وتعالى عما يشركون)، المشركين وشركهم عن المشهد، ويغيبهم عن الذهن، ويجنبهم الفاعلية والمشاركة، "والالتفات إلى الغيبة للإيذان باقتضاء ذكر قبائحهم للإعراض عنهم وطرحهم عن رتبة الخطاب وحكاية شنائعهم لغيرهم"
وتلك الدلالات آتية من طبيعة ضمير الغياب، ومن السياق الذي توافق معها، بل إنه عززها"...ولقد شهد بسداد الاستعمال النحوي العربي ودقته بعض اللسانياتيين الغربيين، فذهب إلى أن هذا الضمير (الغائب) يحيل على شيء خارج الجملة، وأنه لا يعتزي إلى شخص بذاته وإنما يعين الشخص الغائب" وربما أشار الالتفات في قوله تعالى: (...فاسلكي سبل ربك ذللا يخرج من بطونها شراب مختلف ألوانه)، إلى تباين جهتي الإحداث في كل من اتخاذ البيوت وأكل الثمرات وسلوك السبل من جهة، وخروج العسل من بطونها من جهة أخرى، فالنص سمح بإسناد تلك الأُوَل إلى النحل، ولكنه لم يسمح بإسناد إخراج العسل إليه، وهذا يكشف عن أن أعمال النحل بمعزل عن إخراج العسل بذاتها.
وقد شكل الالتفات مفصلا مهما، وتحولا واضحا بين منحيين مختلفين وحقلين متغايرين يلتقيان عند هذا الالتفات وينفصلان، ذانك هما حقل النحل وعالمه وأسراره، وحقل الإنسان وإفادته من ذاك النشاط، إفادات مادية وأخرى معنوية.
أحدث الالتفات في قوله سبحانه: (وقال الله لا تتخذوا إلهين اثنين، إنما هو إله واحد فإياي فارهبون)، اختلافا في الدلالة، تبعا لاختلاف الموضوعين في كل حالة، ففي حالة الغياب، كان الموضوع الإيمان والاعتقاد، وهو أمر مستكن في القلوب، ذاهب في النفوس كل مذهب، وفي حالة العمل، الذي شأنه الدوام والاستمرار والتجدد،كان أسلوب التكلم، وتبدو العلاقة بين الحالتين وثيقة، والصلة بينهما هي صلة الفرع بالأصل. ولأن الأفعال مظنة التراجع ومحتملة للتقطع أو التقصير والتهاون جيء لها بضمير المتكلم الذي يشعر بالسطوة والحضور: "(فإياي فارهبون) نقل الكلام عن الغيبة إلى التكلم، وجاز لأن الغائب هو المتكلم، وهو من طرق الالتفات، وهو أبلغ في الترهيب من قوله وإياه فارهبوه" إذ الغاية منه الالتفات من الغيبة إلى التكلم لتربية المهابة وإلقاء الرهبة في القلوب"
و"لما ثبت أن الإله واحد، وثبت أن المتكلم بهذا الكلام إله، فحينئذ ثبت أنه لا إله للعالم إلا المتكلم بهذا الكلام،فحينئذ يحسن منه أن يعدل من الغيبة إلى الحضور ويقول: (فإياي فارهبون)"
أفاد الالتفات إلى التكلم في قوله تعالى: (ما عندكم ينفد وما عند الله باق ولنجزين الذين صبروا..) أعلى درجات التوكيد والتوثيق، وأضفى على قلوب المخاطبين طمأنينة ورضى؛ ذلك لما في أسلوب التكلم من الله من الخصائص، و"فائدة الالتفات إلى التكلم في هذه المواضع التنبيه على التخصيص بالقدرة"، فهم من مجموع ذلك أن الله لا يكون متكلما، إلا في موضوع عالي القدر، سني الدرجة، فيوليه عنايته، ويطلق ذلك للناس.
لا شك أن الالتفات إلى التكلم في قوله تعالى: (آتيناه في الدنيا حسنة) قد دل على إظهار الاهتمام والتكريم لإبراهيم، عليه السلام، "والالتفات إلى التكلم لإظهار كمال الاعتناء بشأنه وتفخيم مكانه، عليه الصلاة والسلام " غير أنا قد نلتمس سببا آخر لهذا الالتفات، وهو مستند إلى تفسير(حسنة) و"هي تنويه الله بذكره، حتى ليس من أهل دين إلا وهم يتولونه"
وبذا تظهر المغايرة بين أسلوب الغيبة الذي اقترن بأمور أنجزت وأسلوب التكلم الذي ارتبط بأمر ما زال مستمرا وقائما، فما زال ذكر إبراهيم عليه السلام شائعا ومتميزا على ألسنة أهل هذا العصر، كما كان في كل عصر، وسيبقي كذلك في كل عصر.
loli wrote:
Im not sure about half way through a sentence follwing is some example from the Islamic awareness website
It seems that I was the one who was not sure, I have corrected myself above
loli wrote:
Say, 'If there were on the earth angels walking about in peace and security, We would certainly have sent down for them from the sky an angel as a messenger' (17:95).
loli wrote:
The first part of the verse is just saying a possible fact, next we can see that "We" is used even though the starting of the ayat starts with "Say"
It is relative I have to say, this is because from the start of We, it is a new sentence and in such case you can change the perspective of speech, however if the point is talking the attention of the listener then it is valid to change the perspective of speech halfway through the sentence, this is what I have learnt new from our discussion
For our verse in question, 39:53, both explanations actually may be valid, Islamic Awarness and mine, depends on the following:
1) I consider what comes after Say, as being part of the sentence , Say...
2) Islamic Awareness brothers, may consider what comes after the word say is a new sentence.
Quote:
Well, in the whole Quran you will never see it said as Ya My Qawm while the last Ya is there, why then it is in 39:53?
it does not have to be O My People......, here is another example where we read Ya Ibaady, directly by Allah, so we expect to MUST SEE IT WITOUT THE LAST YA:
O My servants! No fearshall be upon you this day, nor shall you grieve.
[YThe Quran ; 43:68]
-> See, Allah is talking directly to His servants while calling them with the device Ya: يَا عِبَادِ , i.e O My servants, see how the last Y MUST BE OMMITTED
loli wrote:
Agreed!
Actually, there is anoother example where there is a Style of Nidaa (calling using Ya) yet Ibaady appeared with the last Ya, therefore, removing the last Y (which means My) after a style of Calling (Yaa) is actually optional, I believe it was a coincidence that with the word QAWM, the last Y was ommitted:
يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّ أَرْضِي وَاسِعَةٌ فَإِيَّايَ فَاعْبُدُونِ (56)
[The Quran ; 29:46]
Quote:
If the Ya is not ommitted after a Style of calling then I firmly believe the Ya is not to mean My, rather to indicate a relationship to an ommitted entity WITH A STRESS
For example Ya Ibadya (Al Rahman), i.e. O servants (of Al Rahman), or simply, O servants
loli wrote:
if what you say is true. i.e the extra "Ya" is to indicate stress to the omitted entity.. then we are one step closer to solving the problem.
What I said is based on the many Arabic books and poems that I read and studied, the flexability of the Arabic language is unlimited, simply any Arabic speaker can invent new words or styles to stress, highlight, or seek the attentios of others, it is all classified as Balagha and certainly Balaghah defies grammar
I say that Islamic-Awarness brothers are far closer to solve this puzzle based on the fact that I discovered and now accept that Iltifat is about taking the attention of the listener and cosequently it may happen half way through a sentence but based on a possible relativity between different people to when such new sentence started
loli wrote:
i do hope that you could scan and translate the grammer book that you mentioned.
I will do my best because I want to know more about such type of Balagha, however I am currently busy and I am sure you know other Arabic speakers, so I will search Arabic google for you and find as many articles in Arabic (like the one in here) and post it and later on as time permits I will translate it inshaallah, but you may print it and show it to other Arabic speakers you may know
Balagha is not an easy subject to comprehend because it defies the rules of the grammar as well has no limit
Take care
Posted:
Tue 07 Oct, 2008 7:47 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Hey brother loli
I found a word document explaining the style of Iltfat with many examples from the Quran, the document is in Arabic, however I am going to attach it so in the future I try to have a go at translating it, after reading quick, it seems that yes Iltifat can happen half way through a sentence
Cheers
Posted:
Tue 07 Oct, 2008 6:33 pm
loli Pawn
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Salam Ahmed,
Thank you very much for your effort
Im planning to purchase Neal Robinson's book Discovering The Qur'ān: A Contemporary Approach To A Veiled Text as it is mentioned in the Islamic Awareness website and also recomended by Edip Yuksel in his translation footnotes.
However i dun have enough budget yet, therefore ill ask around the net for answers
Once again, thank you for your effort!
Posted:
Tue 07 Oct, 2008 6:41 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
loli wrote:
Salam Ahmed,
Thank you very much for your effort
Im planning to purchase Neal Robinson's book Discovering The Qur'ān: A Contemporary Approach To A Veiled Text as it is mentioned in the Islamic Awareness website and also recomended by Edip Yuksel in his translation footnotes.
However i dun have enough budget yet, therefore ill ask around the net for answers
Once again, thank you for your effort!
Salam mate
No worries despite that I have not finished my input yet, I am just very busy at the moment
As I mentioned to you that Balagha has no rules, IT IS WIDE OPEN, therefore you will never find a book that explains Balagha via a set of rules that can be followed
Grammar on the other hand has such rules and this is where all my Arabic study have been, I studied Nahw and sarf for over 12 years, I studied a bit of Balagha but found it a bit confusing so I lost interest, however the Quran is making me think again regarding such topic of Balagha, because the Quran is full of such Balagha styles, and that is what I will do slowly in the next few years inshaallah
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