Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: Beating the wives
Hello All
Yesterday I paid faith freedom web site a visit (www.faithfreedom.org) , they tried to corner me in regards to my religion while the fact of the matter that my thread was about music, anyway they raised the issue of killing the apostates and Alhamdullelah I refuted it using the Quran, they also raised another issue which is beating the wife in Islam as they call it, I promised them that I will respond within 48 hours, however I was so disturbed that these people continue to manipulate, lie fabricate to defame this great religion, the Quran indeed never stated to beat ANY WIFE, the Quran was very specific to which wife should be beaten, let's look at the verse as translated by Yusuf Ali and see for ourselves how they manipulated it then lied about it:
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). [The Quran ; 4:34]
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا (34)
-> The verse starts by telling us a common fact about a married couple (man and a woman) :Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means., then Allah is telling us a fact about the righteous women (the wives), :Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard., then Allah talked about the opposite of those righteous women (the unrighteous ones, the ones who are involved in disloyalty and ill-conduct) :As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, See, it is only talking about those DISLOYAL women or those women who are involved in ILL CONDUCT, now if the husbands still love their disloyal wives, they have three actions to take, YOU HAVE TO KNOW that this bit is ONLY talking to those husbands who want to keep their wives despite their involvements in ill conduct, this is obvious from the Arabic word :تَخَافُونَ, Fear, i.e. the husbands are fearing that their ill conduct wives will insist on the wrong doings, on the other hand if the husbands don't care then the 3 options don't apply to them rather one option which is to divorce them or just live with it, i.e. the three options will ONLY apply to those husbands WHO CARE about their disloyal and ill conduct wives, the three options are clear and in the following order:
1) admonish them
2) refuse to share their beds
3) beat them
Now we need to stop and study the above very carefully before ranting that the Quran says beat your wife
We have the following partner (A man and his wife):
1) The wife is involved in disloyalty and ill conduct
2) The husband loves his unrighteous wife and wants to continue living with her
Let's apply this on myself assuming that my wife is involved in ill conduct (God forbids),
Now if I don't care about my wife I can either divorce her and marry a better one or just bloody live with it and possibly share her ill conduct with her i.e. do it with her (encourage her more to do ill conduct), how many husbands you know guys doing just that? I have seen a lot
On the other hand I love my wife and I want to continue living with her especially if we have children that need to be raised in a healthy environment that is based on a loyal father and a loyal mother, not an annoying step mother who will treat my children bad nor have my children without a mother and I just do the kinky act every night illegally and not caring for them, so I will go to my ill conduct dear wife and do the first option Allah told me to do which is :فَعِظُوهُنَّ, i.e. admonish her, no beating in here, it actually means to advice her politely, i. bloody e. the first option to discipline a perverted wife yet dear one is to advice her politely, now if she listened and fixed herself, then piece of cake, end of story (mission accomplished), but if she is so perverted that she insists in her ill conduct and disloyalty yet I still love her and want the good for her then I will resort to the second option which is وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ, i.e. refuse to share their beds, again no beating or any harm inflicted, in fact it sounds like a punishment to the husband as well because in this case he still can't have sex with anyone else. Again if she fixed her ill conduct then piece of cake, end of story (mission accomplished)
Yet she is so perverted that she insists on her ill conduct, and if I still love her and don't want to destroy a family that easy and after I exhausted the first two options then I will resort to option 3 :وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ i.e. beat her , how light or how hard?, the Quran never stated that, but the Quran clearly is talking to a wise husband not any husband for that matter, a husband that is so wise to exhaust the first two options to discipline his ill conduct yet dear wife, therefore the beating should be done with wisdom not with a hammer, ironically many husbands in any country Muslims or not bash the hell out of their wives without even their wives been involved in any ill conduct it is actually the husbands who are mostly involved in ill conduct yet the wives are the ones who get beaten, this has nothing to do with the above verse, it is all about domestic violence that the enemy of Islam try hard to link it to the Quran as they are trying hard for years to link terror to the Quran but they will fail (no doubt about it) because they are simply ignorant with what the Quran message is.
In fact the same very verse is warning those wise husbands to stop any punishment of these three punishments on the spot if the ill conduct wife repents فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا, i.e. but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)., obviously the enemy of Islam like Dr A S, don't see the ending of the verse as they don't see that the verse is only stating to beat an ill conduct wife yet he is also blind to see that the verse is talking to a wise husband not any husband, yet he also failed to see that the beating was only a third option after exhausting the first two options which do not include any beating rather advising them politely first then not sharing the bed with them second and sure the second one is a punishment for the wise husband as well, that is not strange from the enemy of Islam, I'm not surprised anyway because they are either physically blind or deliberately blind
They are blind not to see that it is all about disciplining a perverted yet dear wife, an act that is legal under the human laws, if we have a criminal for example and was caught for the first time, he may escape with a warning at court (advising the wife politely first) , then the criminal insisted to do the wrong the court then will increase the punishment (do not share bed with the wife), the criminal yet keeps breaking the laws, the judge will loose patient and order a very sever penalty (beat the wife) because that criminal is habitual offender exactly as the perverted wife who insisted on breaking the divine family laws by continuously been involved in ill conduct, at the end of the day, the judge or the husband wants to discipline the habitual offender for the good of them
The good for them can be a big stack in this life yet it is a huge stack in the after life if there is a God and there is a punishment EXACTLY as the Quran says, therefore a repented wife will be in far better position on the JD (assumption) than the one who didn't repent, this probability must be considered even if its odds is too low because its stack is too high
They are also blind not to see how the Bible orders the women hands to be chopped off despite what they have done is nothing but a heroic act:
"And in case men struggle together (in a fight) with one another, and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the striking one (to save her husband), and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of his private (the other man's groin), she must then get both her hands cut off, and the eyes of the men must feel no sorrow." [Deuteronomy ; 25:11-12]
-> See, we have two men fighting together :And in case men struggle together (in a fight) with one another, the wife of one of them came rushing to help her husband in his fight against the other man :and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the striking one (to save her husband), now this wife is a hero, she is helping her husband for God sake, possibly he will be killed by the other man, now the Bible tells us that this woman must be punished if she commits a specific act in the FIGHT :and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of his private (the other man's groin),, come on, give me a break will ya?, it is not like she hit him under the belt, well it can't be because the Bible was specific to identify the illegal part been grabbed by the woman which is his groin, now the punishment is really horrific for that brave woman who was helping her husband in his fight and only grabbed the groin of the other man : she must then get both her hands cut off, , holy shit? HER BOTH HANDS CHOPPED OFF, what justice is that I have to ask?, hmmm, it sounds like it is ok for the wife to stick a baseball bat in the other man's ass but to grab his groin is illegal and she must have her both hands chopped off, a hero will have her both hands chopped off
-> What is ironic that the author of this passage of the Bible cared less about the problem (the original fight between the two men), it is like the fight must go on (Scorpoins Wins), far out man, I can't believe some one claims to be smart like Dr Ali Sina (A clear cut Quran basher) didn't see this in the Bible, let me show you how double faced and hypocrite the Doctor and his gang are:
Finally I agree that many Muslim husbands beat their wives but you also have to agree that more non Muslim husbands beat their wives, this is totally a different issue as I stated earlier and it is called Domestic Violence, here is some facts that again Dr Ali Sina and his gang are never interested to have a look at:
Domestic violence:
Occurs when a family member, partner or ex-partner attempts to physically or psychologically dominate or harm the other. And this does not apply to the Quran verse in any way
Recent attention to domestic violence began in the women's movement as concern about wives being beaten by their husbands, and has remained a major focus of modern feminism, particularly in terms of "violence against women".
Popular emphasis has tended to be on women as the victims of domestic violence although with the rise of the men's movement, and particularly men's rights, there is now some advocacy for men as victims.
Awareness and documentation of domestic violence differs from country to country. According to the Centers for Disease Control domestic violence is a serious, preventable public health problem affecting more than 32 million Americans, that is more than 10% of the U.S. population (Tjaden and Thoennes 2000).
Causes:
1) Poverty
2) Power and control
3) Drug Abuse and Alcoholism
4) Bullying
5) Sex and gender
Statistics: Europe
A Council of Europe study (1992) found that 1 in 4 women experience domestic violence over their lifetimes and between 6-10% of women suffer domestic violence in a given year.
UK
The British Crime Survey for the year 2001-2 reported, "There were an estimated 12.9 million incidents of domestic violence acts (nonsexual threats or force) against women [84%] and 2.5 million against men [16%] in England and Wales in the year prior to interview." The same report states, "Four per cent of women and two per cent of men were subject to domestic violence (non-sexual domestic threats or force) during the last year."
In the United Kingdom, the police estimate that around 35% of domestic violence against women is actually reported and a 2002 Women's Aid study found that 74% of separated women suffered from post-separation violence.
US
It is estimated that every year in the United States, approximately 3 million women are assaulted by their partner. One in four women in the U.S. will be assaulted by their partner over their lifetimes.
In 1998 in the U.S.,of the approximately 1.5 million violent crimes committed between intimate partners, over 874,000 of the victims were women, and over 832,000 were men. Of the approximately 1,830 murders committed against intimate partners in 1998, 3 out of 4 of the victims were women. In 2001 according to the United States Census Bureau there were 691,710 non-fatal domestic violence acts committed and 1,247 fatal incidents. In homes where domestic violence occurs, children in the home are at a 300% greater risk of being abused.
-> 6-12% of women are abused in a given year
-> 20-30% of women receiving welfare are current victims of Domestic Violence
-> 30-65% of all homicides of women are related to Domestic Violence by their male partners
-> According to Respecting Accuracy in Domestic Abuse Reporting (RADAR) report:
-> Women are just as likely as men to engage in partner aggression (Kelly 2003)
-> Men experience over one-third of DV-related injuries (Psychological Bulletin, Vol. 126, No. 5, pages 651-680)
-> Men are far less likely to report DV incidents than women (Stets and Straus 1990)
-> The myths about domestic violence are numerous (Gelles 1995)
-> Many of these myths are based on DV studies that use biased survey methods (Arriaga and Oskamp 1999)
According to Southern Connecticut State University: "In 95% of family violence cases the victims are women beaten by male partners. In 1% of the cases the reverse is true. There are an estimated 28 million battered women in the U.S., more than half of all married women in the country. In the U.S., one woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 9 seconds. Battering is the single major cause of injury to women between the ages of 15 and 44 in the U.S.; more than car accidents, muggings, and rapes combined. 70% of the assault victims seen in the emergency room of Boston City Hospital are women who have been attacked in their own homes. 3 out of 5 women in the U.S. will be battered in their lifetime." Domestic Violence Facts
Eight-five percent of these orders are issued against men (Young, Independent Women's Forum, 2005). Family judges often issue orders of protection or restraining orders in the absence of any direct threat of harm (Heleniak, Rutgers Law Review, Spring 2005). Often these orders are used as "part of the gamesmanship of divorce." (Kasper, Illinois Bar Journal, June 2005 and Kiernan, New Jersey Law Journal, April 1988)
New research published in the Journal of Family Psychology says that contrary to media and public opinion women commit more acts of violence than men in eleven categories: throw something, push, grab, shove, slap, kick, bite, hit or threaten a partner with a knife or gun. The study, which is based on interviews with 1,615 married or cohabiting couples and extrapolated nationally using census data, found that 21 percent of couples reported domestic violence. The Washington Times confirms study.
Dr. Gerald P. Koocher, American Psychology Association President, stated October 2006 that "psychological science is not politically correct." He adds, "Several studies of domestic violence have suggested that males and females in relationships have an equal likelihood of acting out physical aggression, although differing in tactics and potential for causing injury (e.g., women assailants will more likely throw something, slap, kick, bite, or punch their partner, or hit them with an object, while males will more likely beat up their partners, and choke or strangle them)."
Australia
Recent findings - 2006 - from the * Australian Bureau of Statistics Personal Safety Surveyshow that overall, more males than females are victims of physical assault (10.8% vs 5.8%). However, women are most at risk of assault in the home and from men they know, while men are most at risk of assault in public spaces and from men they don't know. Among the large numbers of men physically assaulted each year, close to 70 per cent were assaulted by strangers. Less than five per cent were assaulted by a female partner or ex-partner. In contrast, among the female victims of physical assault, 31 per cent were assaulted by a male partner or ex-partner (Table 16, p. 30).
Men's rights activists and others supporting male victims argue that there is a range of socialization related factors that would lead to very high levels of under-reporting by male victims. They also argue that until recently, very few studies asked about female-on-male (or female-on-female) domestic violence; so while these figures are appallingly high, the prevalence of violence against men is typically not included in the figures.
Cost:
In the U.S., between 3 and 5 billion dollars are spent annually for medical expenses related to domestic violence. Also, approximately 100 million dollars is lost by businesses annually though lost productivity, sick leave and absenteeism due to domestic violence.
What else I can say?, I guess nothing much,
I rest my case
Salam
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Tue 19 Feb, 2008 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Fri 17 Nov, 2006 11:19 am
snooze
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:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, See, it is only talking about those DISLOYAL women or those women who are involved in ILL CONDUCT,
My understanding of this is that it meant women whom you fear or suspect disloyalty and ill-conduct and NOT those who are already guilty of disloyalty and ill conduct.
Posted:
Fri 17 Nov, 2006 2:23 pm
Blakrose
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Sorry Ahmed, but I didn't get a chance to read the whole lot of that.. Anthony kept wanting me lol.. but what if man did the same thing?
I guess my questions are more along the line equality.
take care
Tracey
Posted:
Fri 17 Nov, 2006 7:24 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
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Post subject:
snooze wrote:
My understanding of this is that it meant women whom you fear or suspect disloyalty and ill-conduct and NOT those who are already guilty of disloyalty and ill conduct.
Hello
Of course it has to be a suspect, the fear is npot coming from nothing, the wife must be doing something bad especially the husband will ask her first politely then she continues to do it and the husband leave her alone in bed then she continues to do it then the husband beats her, but if she return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance), exactly the verse told us at the end, i.e. we are dealing with a habitual offender who returned to obedience after she commited many ill conduct
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Blakrose wrote:
Sorry Ahmed, but I didn't get a chance to read the whole lot of that.. Anthony kept wanting me lol.. but what if man did the same thing?
Hello mate
I hope Anthony is doing great,
I actually responded to this before, I totally believe that a wife who beats a perverted husband will be in great danger, he can easily kill her if she beats him, however the wife have one option to take with a husband that is a habitual offender, she can easily seek divorce and she will get it, but if she loves him then so be it she has to live with him
Blakrose wrote:
I guess my questions are more along the line equality. take care
Tracey
In this life a man and a woman can't be equal, at least physically speaking, and we are dealing with a physical act in here which is beating,
the Quran didn't forbid a wife to beat her perverted husband, it was never mentioned in there, so if the wife thinks she can beat a perverted husband, please go for it but I guess her life will be in great danger, as simple as this
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Hello All
Just a reply for my comment by All_Brains from FF:
All_Brains wrote:
Howz it goin mate?
Great mate and you?
All_Brains wrote:
I read your article...Good work, I must say that eventhough I differ with you and will show you how in a second, I really like your oganisation and sequence of thoughts...
Thanks, I always try to be clear so the readers can follow with ease, I can't help my typos though even if I use word somehow, it is just beyond my abilities
All_Brains wrote:
Now....
I have a problem with your explanation that it automatically assumes that men are the leader and the judge when it comes to marital conflicts.
Not really an assumption, it is a fact actually, however women too can hit their husbands and they bloody do it every where, if you mean why the Quran didn't allow the wife to beat a perverted husband, then it is simply to protect the wife from that perverted husband, if she beats him he can simply kill her, there is no questions that men and women are physically different and indeed men are tougher in general, I agree that there is exceptions but in general women are weaker than men physically, they may be stronger mentally but physically the general rule that they are weaker
All_Brains wrote:
It did not even once persume that although the man thinks that the woman is disobedient or disloyal, he could actually be wrong!!
Of course and I accept your argument, however the husband will start by firstly confronting her politely if he thinks that she is involved in ill conduct, now assuming the wife will admit then we have no problem but if she will not admit and deny then the husband can easily monitor her and prove her ill conduct through a private investigator for example or who about contacting the American sho Cheaters
Please understand that we are talking about a wise husband in her, but in reality though I agree that husbands may abuse it but that is already abused by the non Muslims so why the hell picking only on the flawed Muslims?, I call this double standards and hypocrisy
The law is detailed in the Quran and the humans will bear responsibility in applying it correctly, if they abuse it as they abuse any law (Islamic or no t) then they have been done by Satan, and that is no problem with Allah, they will pay along with Satan for it fair and square either in this life or later on the JD
All_Brains wrote:
It also presumes that the man is the bread winner, which was true then in an old Arab community....This is now far from the truth in the western soceity and women do a wonderful job being a productive half of our modern society, after centuries of man dark and injust dominance over women.
No it does not, the verse is talking in general and till this moment the general rule is men support women, yes women now started to support men and that is not forbidden by the Quran and in this case I say the verse can be used in reverse nothing that forbids it really, however the wife will be in danger if she beats a perverted man, there is no question about it, but if the wife can master any sort of mar6tial arts that would be great just knock the pervert down with a flyin kick, how about that?
All_Brains wrote:
The entire surah paints a picture of a dominant wise man, who is fully in control of the assessment, judgement and issuance of verdicts...Man calls the shots! This is the real problem! The beating is the climax of the Suarah of course, but all other elements display a perfect man's world.
mate, what the hell you are talking about, you are really bull shitting to sugest that this is the climate for the whole 176 verse of the sura, how about we discuss the whole sura verse by verse and I will prove your ignorance, sorry
now for the dominant men, oh please look around ya, how many women were the PM of Australia?, how about the president of America and many other countries, why the parliament house in all countries are mostly men dominant?, please answer that?, are these countries Muslims?
Mate, I'm not discussing the current affairs, I'm only discussing the Quran verses I only raised these question to show you that you can't see too far around you, so let's only dicuss Quran and not philosophy, please show me where any verse does not make sense to you in the whole sure no 4 but exclude the one we already discussed we are not going to repeat our arguments please and we can agree to disagree and leave it to the public to decide
All_Brains wrote:
Why did not Allah issue a surah that shows women what to do when the situation is in reverse????
as I said many times, I belive this is great wisdom from Allah because the perverted man can kill a woman if she beats him, humans will never reach the knowledge of the All Mighty Allah and His Wisdom
All_Brains wrote:
Why are disloyality and infedilty were attribued to women as a possiblity, but never presumesd that man can do such horrible thing...
of course it is a horrible thing for a man, but the verse we are discussing is not really talking about cheating, disloyalty here can be anything disloyal but cheating, how about Shop Lifting, how abut pimping young women?, how about talking ill about others in their absence?, how about beating the children?, how about heavily drinking alcohol?, how about snorting hereon?, oh come on, there is many things for an ill conduct, in fact the verse never mentioned DISLOYALTY it only talked about ILL CONDUCT. it was Y A who added an extra word and I was stupid not to take note of it and use it, the Arabic word was NUSHUZAHUNA which only means ILL CONDUCT, therefore you have no argument that the verse means cheating, in fact IT DOES NOT
All_Brains wrote:
The beating of the wife Surah with all its elements paints a perfect picture of the relationship between men and women few centuries ago, not anymore! Women are free and don't need men to survive, they need them to love and be their life journey partners....
Well, if you mean that wives are free to insist on ill conduct the I'm sorry I'm not buying your flawed argument, I guess a pervert wife like that should not marry from the first place and in that case she will have no one to discipline her she can go shop lifting all day long, inevitably she will end in jail.
All_Brains wrote:
Also, one last thought!
No longer strength is required to obtain a job (unless your are a bouncer)!
Actually many jobs can be done by women, but this is not my argument really, my argument nis simple women are weaker than men physically and in general (there are rare exception), however I agree that there are many women who are mentally tougher than men
All_Brains wrote:
Mostly intellect can get you now the better job...and boy oh boy...do women compete in that area or what?
Your thoughts!
Of course they do and I'm sure they can do better, in fact the whole religion of Islam was based on that, let me bring the verse for you:
O Prophet! Say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its ornature then come, l will give you a provision and allow you to depart a graceful departure. And if you desire Allah and His Messenger and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good from among you a ,mighty reward. [The Quran ; 33:28-29]
-> See, Mohammad was ordered by Allah to offer his wives a choice to give them a good provision and allow them to depart gracefully, i.e. divorce them if they desired this world and its adornment. Alternatively, they should renounce the world and abstain from adornments and embellishments if they desired Allah and His Prophet and the latter abode. What an honour that is for the women race, they were chosen to teach thousands of men worldwide their religion as they have learnt it firsthand from the Prophet. To our present day, Aysha for example is considered among the most prominent Islamic scholars and she holds extremely high esteem in the hearts of all Muslims.
Therefore Islam is not against the women holding prominent rolls, in fact it seems all the world share this ignorance against all women (In every country till this very moment) and if they implement the Islamic teaching then women should hold prominent roles exactly as men, the bible on the other hand prevent women from holding positions as religious scholars, did you know that?
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Wed 28 Jul, 2010 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:05 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Hello
Replies just keep coming to the suppose to be one on one debate on Faith Freedom
here is one:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
then all doctrine to punish a perverted woman are flawed, how about we leave her to continue her perversity?
darth wrote:
What exactly is a "perverted" woman? How do you judge that she is "perverted"? What exactly are the criterion you look for before you decide to beat her up?
Hi
I believe I have given clear examples including a more detailed one of a shop lifter, or do you think all shop lifters are singles?
AhmedBahgat wrote:
yeh, yeh yeh, let the women be a pervert, sounds like pimping to me
darth wrote:
Why bring pimping into this? Quran allows a man to be a pimp (24.33).
You are certainly and without doubt confused about 24:33, while I can allow some disruptions to what I'm mainly discussing I can't allow the disruption in your comment however I promise you that I will create an article on FI for that verse alone and post a url for you or even copy it here, but in here they don't like me posting Arabic verses, the management never opposed it but most members just make fun of it which is very disrespectful not to the Quran verses as I already know that they don't respect it, rather it is a disrespect to me
AhmedBahgat wrote:
that is not teaching bro, this is disciplining a perverted adult, but fine withy me if your wife is a pervert, just leave with it bro, I won't I will talk to her first then I will leave her alone in bed and if she continues her perversity and I won't live with her I will beat her, now this is my life and I'm happy to follow a flawed doctrine,
darth wrote:
You won't be too happy following this doctrine if you try to beat up your wife in a country with secular laws.
in a country where beating a perverted wife will make me questionable then as a wise man I won't beat her rather report her to the police then divorce her then marry another woman, , I have been wise because I won't put myself in situation where a flawed human law may lock me up because I want the good for a perverted woman, for me then I will make sure the pervert will be locked up as she must pay her dues to the society she is living in, then I'm sure there are many good women out there, in deed an unbeliever who does not commit ill conduct will be a better wife than a believer who insists on ill conduct, possibly the beating will put an end to her ill conduct, i do believe that it will, other than that she can be a drug junkie in jail
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I would rather leave a psychological scar on a dear wife than leaving her perverted, it seems you prefer a perverted wife?, fine there are many, please pick one and enjoy a swinging life
darth wrote:
Please tell us first what is "perversion".
hmm, I think I did, however I might have been using the word loosly that is due to my lack of proper English , the bottom line is this, I mean a woman that involved in any ill conduct and she insists on it
AhmedBahgat wrote:
hahaha, nice twist bro, it seems all here learnt this professionalism from the Doctor, in the verse of the Quran there was no guidance teaching, it was only teaching a perverted woman a lesson befaire she dies and be held accountable by her God
darth wrote:
The quran allows beating not just the perverted woman (whatever that may be) but a woman about whom you fear disobedience.
excuse me, read the end of the bloody verse, it says if they repent then stop, i.e. they were doing the bloody ill conduct, you can't manipulate the Arabic Quran with a fluent native Arabic speaker like me,
try something else
AhmedBahgat wrote:
and it is beyond me too, but I managed to see sense in it for the better of the perverted women
darth wrote:
Except that the verse does not define what is "perversion".
it does define it, it not my problem that you lack Arabic if you even speak it from the first place
the word Nashiz means someone who is involved in ill conduct, here it is for the blinds, hypocrites and double faced, SAID ABOUT THE HUSBANDS IN THE SAME SURA:
If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
-> See, the same word in different form said about the men : نُشُوزًا , If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, and here is the solution for her, of course she can't beat him because simply a curled husband who is involved in ill conduct will beat her back and possibly kill her, however this is what she can do : , there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do., in fact this is a great testimony from Allah that the majority of women by nature are kind, beautiful and peaceful race, unlike the majority of men who are cruel and perpetrators, however and this is bloody a big HOWEVER the Quran in 4:34 was not talking about cruel and ill conducted men, it was talking about a wise men who love their ill conducted wives as 4:128 is talking about a wise woman who are dealing with ill conducted husbands
darth wrote:
So how can it be better for the woman?
Hmmm, are you talking on behalf of the women of the world or what exactly?, I will accept it if you state that you are talking only on the behalf of the Muslim women of the world?, if this is the case then I say, tough luck to them if they don't like it they can gracefully leave the religion and marry a kafir, how about that mister darth?
darth wrote:
Maybe to me perversion is when I have told her not to look out of the window and she does.
this will tell me that you are the ill conducted man and according to 4:128 she can seek divorce in accordance with another verse that I believe in the same sura or possibly in the divorce sura
see how confused you are?
darth wrote:
How can my beating her up to stop her looking out of the window be better for her?
actually it won't stop her from looking the windows but what it will do is simply the woman will successfully seek divorce according to 4:128 and possibly a lot of damages as well, the ill conducted husband must see the highway
see how confused you are?
darth wrote:
Admit it- this is a very silly verse made up by mo.
hmmm, I guess you need to admit that you are confused, blind, biased, and most impotently lack the knowledge of the Arabic Quran hence you are not qualified to discuss it and I have to dismiss you
Cheers
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Tue 19 Feb, 2008 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sat 18 Nov, 2006 1:28 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
All_Brains wrote:
It's very curious how did the Quran deal with the situation in reverse.
see, the Quran explained many things, but what I found more curious, why the enemy of islam didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t pick on 4:128?
Do you think they didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see it?
All_Brains wrote:
You'd think the same sequence shold take place ...Abdonishment, dersertion in bed and then beating up!
Actually the first two options for the man are available for the woman because a sort of negotiation will initiate between them, and in this case the wife will expose the ill conduct of the husband to him and certainly will explain to him how ill it is and ask him to stop, she can also suggest that she will leave the house and live with her family for a while while he thinks about it, and this indeed is very respectful for the women and is full of wisdom because it gives her full protection against a cruel man
All_Brains wrote:
Even if we take out the beating up, where are the other two....
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Asliho Baynahum????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, this means ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Negotiation to reach a common ground within the relationship????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, it is your ignorance that is making you blind not to see it, I doubt that you are a native Arabic speaker as you claimed, let me ask you straight and think of me looking into your eyes,
are you a native Arabic speaker?
Now look into my eyes and answer honestly
All_Brains wrote:
When the situation is in reverse, it's clear that the Quran has a complete different solution, which is through settlement or mediators!
not really, the two solutions are 2/3 identical, it is your lack of Arabic that is making you blind not to see it
All_Brains wrote:
You know why...beacuse it's out of question that the woman try to wisen up her man in Islam....it's a no go that women refuse to offer sexual services to men in Islam...
I will excuse your ignorance and repeat to you that 4:128 means that the women can wisen an ill conduct husband, sorry try another thing
All_Brains wrote:
Allah's solution to the (same) problem differed when dealing with both genders....Allah is sexist!
He never said that He is, it is you who says so, however what I can say that Allah said, He created us a man and a woman, therefore He knows best what we are and what we should follow, I won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t take your human science or the deluded philosophy as base for everything because they do not solve everything and many times tuned to be flawed even the man in your avatar admitted his blunder
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Fri 22 Dec, 2006 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sat 18 Nov, 2006 2:01 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Of course and I accept your argument, however the husband will start by firstly confronting her politely if he thinks that she is involved in ill conduct, now assuming the wife will admit then we have no problem but if she will not admit and deny then the husband can easily monitor her and prove her ill conduct through a private investigator for example or who about contacting the American sho Cheaters
Huston wrote:
Where does it say talk to her politely? It says to chastise her, in other words, tell her where her position is. So it is not polite, it is derogatory.
Did you read my whole comment or what?
Your argument is a clear cut case of ignorance with the Arabic language, the Arabic word Mawiza means only one thing, to advice someone POLITELY, if you are going to do it aggressively then this is not Mawiza any more rather criticism, indeed the Quran has given us an example of a wise man doing just that, giving his son many Mowiza, Admonishing let's have a look:
12: And certainly We gave wisdom to Luqman, saying: Be grateful to Allah. And whoever is grateful, he is on!y grateful for his own soul; and whoever is ungrateful, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient, Praised.
13: And when Luqman said to his son while he admonished him: O my son! do not associate aught with Allah; most surely polytheism is a grievous iniquity--
16: O my son! surely if it is the very weight of the grain of a mustard-seed, even though it is in (the heart of) rock, or (high above) in the heaven or (deep down) in the earth, Allah will bring it (to light); surely Allah is Knower of subtleties, Aware;
17: O my son! keep up prayer and enjoin the good and forbid the evil, and bear patiently that which befalls you; surely these acts require courage;
18: And do not turn your face away from people in contempt, nor go about in the land exulting overmuch; surely Allah does not love any self-conceited boaster;
19: And pursue the right course in your going about and lower your voice; surely the most hateful of voices is braying of the asses. [The Quran ; 31:12-13,16-19]
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا لُقْمَانَ الْحِكْمَةَ أَنِ اشْكُرْ لِلَّهِ وَمَن يَشْكُرْ فَإِنَّمَا يَشْكُرُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَنِيٌّ حَمِيدٌ (12)
وَإِذْ قَالَ لُقْمَانُ لِابْنِهِ وَهُوَ يَعِظُهُ يَا بُنَيَّ لَا تُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ إِنَّ الشِّرْكَ لَظُلْمٌ عَظِيمٌ (13)
-> In sura no 31, Allah is informing us about a wise man from the past, his name was Luqman : And certainly We gave wisdom to Luqman, saying: Be grateful to Allah. And whoever is grateful, he is on!y grateful for his own soul
-> Then Allah is telling us that Luqman was admonishing his son Yaozhu, see, same word used in 4:34, : : And when Luqman said to his son while he admonished him , and here is what Luqman said to his son while admonishing him:
1) O my son! do not associate aught with Allah; most surely polytheism is a grievous iniquity--
2) O my son! surely if it is the very weight of the grain of a mustard-seed, even though it is in (the heart of) rock, or (high above) in the heaven or (deep down) in the earth, Allah will bring it (to light); surely Allah is Knower of subtleties, Aware;
3) O my son! keep up prayer and enjoin the good and forbid the evil, and bear patiently that which befalls you; surely these acts require courage;
4) And do not turn your face away from people in contempt, nor go about in the land exulting overmuch; surely Allah does not love any self-conceited boaster
5) And pursue the right course in your going about and lower your voice; surely the most hateful of voices is braying of the asses
Now let me ask you, was Luqman rude to his saon while he was admonishing him?
Of course not, that is the whole bloody point of Mawiza, Admonishing, which is to explain a mistake and what should be done to fix it, i.e. you are trying to win that person back to the right path in a polite manner
If you are going to do it aggressively then I'm sorry that can't be Mawiza any more, rather Naqd and this means Criticism
Salam
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Tue 19 Feb, 2008 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 8:20 am
warner
Status:
Faith: Islam Gender:
Joined: Nov 09, 2006
Posts: 3
Post subject:
Peace Ahmed
Your interpretation on 4:34 was on the basis of the loving husband ill conduct/unrighteous wife. That interpretation was alright till end of 4:34, but my concern is 4:35 where the responsibility falls even on the society and the family of both the man and the woman to try to make sure the marriage does not fall apart. I guess the ill conduct mentioned in 4:34 is about minor issues/differences faced in marriages not a major issue as cheating.
Also,
The word used for beating ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????wadhribuhunna????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? is it not the same used in 4:94 ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????darabtum????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and 4:101 for travel or go forth.
Posted:
Tue 21 Nov, 2006 12:46 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
warner wrote:
Peace Ahmed
Your interpretation on 4:34 was on the basis of the loving husband ill conduct/unrighteous wife. That interpretation was alright till end of 4:34, but my concern is 4:35 where the responsibility falls even on the society and the family of both the man and the woman to try to make sure the marriage does not fall apart. I guess the ill conduct mentioned in 4:34 is about minor issues/differences faced in marriages not a major issue as cheating.
Also,
The word used for beating ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????wadhribuhunna????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? is it not the same used in 4:94 ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????darabtum????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and 4:101 for travel or go forth.
Salam mate
I was just about to go to bed, I read your comment and will respond tomorrow inshallah, there is actually more on FF that I will bring here
but before I go I agree that 4:34 is not about cheating, I actually explained this on FF, I will bring in the comment tomorrow inshallah
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
I hit the subject on the nail and I never tried to evade it as many confused Muslims do, indeed if you state this wife beat8ing argument you will hear many says that Idrabo in the verse means abandon them, which is a clear cut manipulation, others will say the beating must be light, like Yusuf Ali who added the word lightly in his translation, and I disputed that, indeed when it comes to the Quran I try to be honest as much as I can be regarding its words, I don't want to accumulate horrible sins as many Muslims do by manipulating it.
All_Brains wrote:
Eventhough I may differ with you in opinion, but I also respect your for the honest approach.
Actually this my big problem with the Quran aloners, I stick to the literal Quran and they don't, everyone of them can manipulate the verse the way everyone sees it and I don't, I only apply the literal meaning for it, of course being a native speaker to the language is helping me doing that, I tried actually to explain to them that by comparison they can be in big shit in the day of the account because of the following simple logic:
If Allah exists and the Quran is His, and I understood any verse literally but Allah meant with it a metaphor then I will have a very good defence, but for the aloners if their metaphor understanding is wrong, then they will have no defence and it can easily be said to them I never said that
Quote:
fine and even if I acceot that argument by, again that is great wisdom from Allah to give te woman a full protection i.e. there will be thits parties who are trying to make peace between the two and those two are A pervert husband and a wise wife i.e. peace won't happen until the husbands stops his ill conduct or divorce must happen.
All_Brains wrote:
I actually accept this approach more than the manly one. It very much talks about discussion, counceling and mediating of families and friends. My problem is with God's solutions when the man is disobeyed.
fine, and me as a muslim if faced with the same delimma I will never resort to option 3, I would rather change beds and this it should be great to change wifes after a few years of marriage to the same one who turned to be perverted, I guess Allah knows better than me and you, also I don't see the verse as a must order to beat them, I believe it is circumstantial and depends on a lot of variables, at the end of the day it is a choice given to the wise men to use or not to use, there will be no sin committed for not beating a perverted wife and this is what I will go for.
Quote:
it is up to Him how He addresses both, it is not up to you nor up to me
All_Brains wrote:
Remeber you are talking to a bunch of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Budhists, Atheists, Agnostics and Muslim Apostates...Who will question every action or attribute to Allah that are not in line with common sense, justice and decency.
I see all these religions before corruption point to the same God and say the same things about God, in fact I can show you that the Quran the Bible and the Veda almost said the same thing about God, the problem with the people who found it hard to accept the Quran is simply, they are basing it on the human laws and not on a divine laws, they are also forgetting that being tested in this life may be the sole reason of our existence, no one can write this probability off, and if this is the case then Allah must be testing us with his laws to see who from the human who will accept it and obey it, there is no doubt that at the moment of death, every one of us will face a huge surprise, the believers may be surprised that what they believed in don't exist and equally the unbelievers may be surprised that what they rejected exist
All_Brains wrote:
The above anwer will not cut the mustard when trying to persuade scpetics of your view point...
I donlt know what you mean?, however I'm not against questioning, I did question myself and it took me at least 5 years to concede that the Quran is the words of Allah, therefore I'm trying to be fair and consider that I'm responding to myself, you have to also know that when I reached that conclusion, it didnlt stop there, I continued studying this great book for the 20 odd following years, my belief in this book during these years has be soldifed, IT CAN'T BE CHANGED, in a way there is no way back for e EVEN IF YOU PROVE TO ME THAT THE WHOLE QURAN IS NON SENSIBLE, I challenge you though to prove just one point conclusively and beyond an atom weight of doubt that is non sensible
All_Brains wrote:
After all we can say....why would we believe in a God that does not make sense at all!!!
sense to whom exactly, and which god also?
Quote:
Well, I see the solution of the women is far better for them than the solution for the man
All_Brains wrote:
Spot on Ahamad...and that's what the civilised world is practising at the moment...negotiation, discussions and counceling....beating will put you in jail!
but again that is what I see not what Allah sees but you truly missed what I meant, I meant that the solution given to women (2/3) and not including beating the perverted men is far better for them to include beating the perverted men,, yet I concede that what Allah sees is far wiser than what I see or any humans for that matter, it can be a matter that I don't understand His wisdom, that's all.
Quote:
and because Allah always defrentiated between the two regarduing many issues, you can add this one to it, no problem it is up to Him, donlt you realize that we are dealing with a God or what?
All_Brains wrote:
I am an Agnostic and I have freed myself from the fake taboo of Haram..
If an alleged God's action defy common sense, you gotta raise the question mark!
The problem here is simply what you going to gain exactly?
Hmmm, showing that you are brave and have courage?
Good to be but that with humans not with your God who created you and is testing you right now, well even if you don't buy this, you can't eliminate its possibility that there is a God, and even the possibility that thit god maybe a malice god (god forbids).now imagine our god is malice, can we do anything about it? of course we can't and that is what a smart man must think seriously about because the stake can be really hight and the price to pay can be unimaginable, it is sort of the cattle, which supposedly created by our God for us to slaughter them and eat it, can those cattle do anything about it?, of course they can't do shit
All_Brains wrote:
Believers of other religions can just do the exact same thing...
to be honest I careless about other religions despite I spent a fair bit of time studying two big ones out of theother religion, the reason I did that is simply the Quran has a huge massage to one of these two religions, and indeed I like the Christians but that won't prevent me from conveying the message to them that is sent to them in the Quran, that's all, they can simply reject the message, for the others like the jews, the atheists etc, I really care less about them, for me those who donlt believe ina God at all like the atheists are the clear cut losers
All_Brains wrote:
You can't question My God.
in fact I can, because you took your low desires as our god and that is what I;m doing now, I'm questiojing your low desires
All_Brains wrote:
..the real God....
yep I can't question the real God, that is what He said about Himself in the Quran
All_Brains wrote:
but after all, we make our assessments based on what we have on hand...So, if you don't have an answer that's ok, but please don't blame it on the shortcoming of the human brain....This is the illusion that religions want you to believe, so that they can limit your progress and be not able to discover the hoax!
Even if it is a hoax, I will loose nothing and you will win nothing, but if it not a hoax, then I may win a lot and you must be the big loser then, see how dumb you are, sorry to call you dumb
All_Brains wrote:
Just like the matrix!
LOL
Please don't bring the matrix to our discussion, the matrix is noting but confusion
Quote:
Yes I'm Egyptian, and yes you are smart
All_Brains wrote:
Wana kaman ya sahby....sabah al ful, izaiak ya wad!
LOL
sopund like Egyptian to me
All_Brains wrote:
For the rest to understand I am also Egyptian through my Dad... I have four nationalities.
Great, I only have two, but I'm more Australian than Egyptian now, i.e. if I'm asked to leave one citizen and keep only one then the aussie one is the one to stay
Quote:
Great, however for the alleged grammatical mistakes I will only do it on FI, not FF, thank you, this is not negotiable
All_Brains wrote:
Fair Enough!
Great, now I can tell the reason for that, this is a very tough subject and needs a lot of concentration and focus on my end and FF can't provide this envirment hoever on FI we can find this environment, as well I might need to use flash movies in my replies and I can't embed it in this forum but on FI I can
Quote:
and who created that science?
All_Brains wrote:
This is another story Ahmad! We are not trying to prove the existence of God...
of course, we are trying to prove the existence of us and sure the existence of science, science didnlt just came from noting, a designer must have designed it for sure
All_Brains wrote:
I am sure you agree with me that science is great
of course, I consider myself one but sort of a dodgy one
All_Brains wrote:
and does not have to necessarily collide with spirituality, both can live together under the sun! You have done a great job with your web-site due to your IT expertise, thanks to your intellect....now this is something we can trust.
Not really, I only created the infrastructure, like hosting, db, testing etc etc, but a PHP expert (The guy who created BonusNuke) a 45 years old very nice chap, joined my site and offered me to look for errors and even develop it for me for free, this is great he is just awesome, I try to donate money for his web site but in no way this is a price for the great help he is doing to FI, he is even Christian and I debated a bit with him but he is one of those very decent ones that you rarely meat in your life, I really wish him all the best, a better than hundreds of so called Muslims if you ask me
Quote:
not really because the Quran states that the earth is round and rotates around its self.
All_Brains wrote:
Will get to that later!
that is a tough one btw
All_Brains wrote:
And in the spirit of helping the maximum number of people to find their own truth...Please go ahead and respond to the above with regards to the wife beating surah and let's then leave people to draw their own conclusions..
Yeh I think we beated this issue enough, we should now leave to the reader and we move on to another subject so we don't get bored
All_Brains wrote:
I will then start a new point to discuss.
great
All_Brains wrote:
p.s ; Ahlway walla zamalkawy?
Talk to you later!
I used to be zamalkawy but that was when I used to live in sahara's barbie world, now I'm out of that world
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
warner wrote:
Peace Ahmed
Good morning bro
warner wrote:
Your interpretation on 4:34 was on the basis of the loving husband ill conduct/unrighteous wife.
Yes
warner wrote:
That interpretation was alright till end of 4:34,
can you please elaborate?
warner wrote:
but my concern is 4:35 where the responsibility falls even on the society and the family of both the man and the woman to try to make sure the marriage does not fall apart.
of course and that is after exhausting the 3 options to dicipline an ill conduct wife, even after being beaten the wife can still ionsist on her ill conduct, yet Allah is giving us a fourth option to save the marriage and bring the ill conduct wife into the right path
warner wrote:
I guess the ill conduct mentioned in 4:34 is about minor issues/differences faced in marriages not a major issue as cheating.
really being minor ir major is irrelevent, the Quran never stated it is a minor ill conduct, the statement allows for both minor and major ill conduct but I agree with you that it does not include cheating
warner wrote:
Also,
The word used for beating ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????wadhribuhunna????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? is it not the same used in 4:94 ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????darabtum????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and 4:101 for travel or go forth.
it is actually the same verb exactly "Darab", I stress that I said VERB not "ROOT"
the other letters attached are for the grammar only
Since we agree that ill conduct is not about cheating I guess we are talking the same language. As you pointed I withdraw ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????minor????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? from offences since we can not make such distinction from the verse. Will you be in a position to list 5 examples of ill conduct by a wife which can qualify in this situation?
On the issue of darab why do you think the same meaning of go away/separate cannot apply in 4:34 as in 4:94 and 4:101.
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